The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
Post Reply
User avatar
williamjpellas
Member
Posts: 520
Joined: 28 Sep 2002, 19:17
Location: Louisville, KY, USA
Contact:

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#511

Post by williamjpellas » 07 Aug 2019, 00:05

Today, the Third Edition of Robert Wilcox's book, Japan's Secret War, was released---in Japan, translated into Japanese. The two previous editions were never published in Japan. The prime mover in the push to get a Japanese language version into print was former Japanese Self Defense Force General Yoshiaki Yano. In the Yahoo dot com reprint of Jake Adelstein's piece from The Daily Beast, Yano states:

“The first and second editions were both deemed possibly fabricated for lack of evidence,” Yano told The Daily Beast. “That made things easier for the scientists involved in the development, the industry, and the allies… for Japan to position itself as a nation that was just a victim of nuclear weapons and incapable of possessing these powers itself. The Japanese, especially in the academic world, the media and the education industry took it upon themselves to follow through on this and collectively worked to conceal this part of history and ignore the facts presented in this book."

The piece continues:

Yano also is convinced that the work left behind by Japanese scientists helped create North Korea’s nuclear program as detailed in the book. He is also of the opinion that Japan should have its own nuclear weapons for defense.

“It’s clear that the United States, the Soviet Union, North Korea and China and the Chinese Nationalist Party all must have known the truth about Japan’s nuclear weapons, but have hidden it through and through along with the fact that they have intercepted Japan’s work in the past. The father of North Korea’s nuclear program is very closely connected to Japan. The irony is that Japan is now being threatened by China, Russia and North Korea’s nuclear powers.”

Yano sees the publication of the book as a positive thing.

“The Japanese people and especially the people running this nation should know that Japan has a high potential ability to possess nuclear arms and that [we] do not need to be scared of the nuclear threats.”


'Twould seem that the work of the "novelist" Wilcox is being taken quite seriously by very reputable people in Japan.

https://news.yahoo.com/japan-got-atomic ... 14992.html

https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/ ... 1682618967

Genro
Member
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Jul 2014, 10:08

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#512

Post by Genro » 14 Aug 2019, 12:33

This is not so much an endorsement of Wilcox’s book but a bit of internal politics.

Japan-U.S. Alliance Should Not be Turned Adrift
YANO Yoshiaki. Nov.30.2009
www.jfir.or.jp/e/commentary/091130.pdfy


User avatar
williamjpellas
Member
Posts: 520
Joined: 28 Sep 2002, 19:17
Location: Louisville, KY, USA
Contact:

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#513

Post by williamjpellas » 14 Aug 2019, 21:08

This is not so much an endorsement of Wilcox’s book but a bit of internal politics.

Actually, it's about both.

Certainly Yano is an advocate for Japanese rearmament, and yes, Wilcox's book provides context for Yano in making his arguments. That's not the same thing as calling Wilcox "a novelist" and thereby inferring that anyone who agrees with him (including Yano) is therefore contributing to the perpetuation of lies and other historical falsehoods, whether for political or financial gain or what have you.

Perhaps you and other like minded critics should actually read Wilcox---specifically the 3rd Edition---and then read all of his documentary sources. From there you can make an informed decision as to whether he is in fact 1) a novelist who is knowingly perpetrating a historical fraud in order to sell books, or 2) telling the truth, as far as it can be discerned from the sources he has seen and the individuals whom he has interviewed.

Genro
Member
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Jul 2014, 10:08

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#514

Post by Genro » 18 Aug 2019, 12:05

It seems Wilcox is a quite a prolific writer with over ten books to his name ranging from ‘Target Patton: The Plot to Assassinate General George S. Patton’ to ‘The Truth about the Shroud of Turin: Solving the Mystery’. I found these titles on the internet under the classification ‘ Sci-Fi & Fantasy’.
I rest my case.

User avatar
williamjpellas
Member
Posts: 520
Joined: 28 Sep 2002, 19:17
Location: Louisville, KY, USA
Contact:

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#515

Post by williamjpellas » 19 Aug 2019, 00:18

"It seems Wilcox is a quite a prolific writer with over ten books to his name ranging from ‘Target Patton: The Plot to Assassinate General George S. Patton’ to ‘The Truth about the Shroud of Turin: Solving the Mystery’. I found these titles on the internet under the classification ‘ Sci-Fi & Fantasy’.
I rest my case."


Really?

That's it? You beat up a straw man and flat out refuse to read Wilcox and his sources, and then take your ball and go home? That is your response to what a former Japanese Army General is saying about Wilcox's book in an article by Jake Adelstein, an American journalist who has spent most of his adult life living in Japan? I guess they must be part of the scam too, then, right? In cahoots with Wilcox in his diabolical plot to perpetuate a deliberate historical fraud? I thought he was "a novelist", not Machiavelli? :?

And you "found (Wilcox's books) on the internet under the classification 'Sci-Fi & Fantasy'", so now you rest your case. Well, golly gee whiz, that's some lawyering worthy of Perry Mason and Ben Matlock! What can I possibly say to that? I mean, other than asking you what site you claim to have visited that supposedly listed Wilcox's writing under that heading. Doubtless it must be a reputable, mainstream bookselling site. Let's see.

Hmm, could it be Amazon? https://www.amazon.com/s?k=robert+k+wil ... _sb_noss_2 Nope.

Maybe Barnes and Noble? https://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/robert ... id=2473539 Nope.

Well then, it must be Goodreads, right? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/295 ... earch=true Nope.

Could it be Regnery? https://www.regnery.com/books/the-truth ... -of-turin/ No?

Surely Simon and Schuster agrees with you? https://www.simonandschuster.com/author ... cox/354650 Wait, they don't?!? In fact, it looks like they really don't: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/ ... 1682618967

I could go on, but there's clearly no point. No amount of testimony or evidence will ever convince you, genro, simply because you refuse to be convinced. This, in turn, is because of the obvious delight you take in your typical post-WWII, academic left, blame-America-for-everything worldview. You're entitled to hold to that point of view, of course, but you tipped your hand with your "Rambo" reference a number of pages and years back in this discussion thread. And now you're simply refusing to read the book. You're a smart guy, that's obvious. But your stance at this point has nothing to do with intelligence, and everything to do with a closed mind and an obvious a priori thought process.

Until and unless that changes, adios.

Genro
Member
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Jul 2014, 10:08

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#516

Post by Genro » 09 Sep 2019, 14:59

Hungnam and the Japanese atomic bomb: Recent historiography of a postwar Myth.
Walter Grunden

Genro
Member
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Jul 2014, 10:08

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#517

Post by Genro » 09 Sep 2019, 15:00

Hungnam and the Japanese atomic bomb: Recent historiography of a postwar Myth.
Walter Grunden

User avatar
williamjpellas
Member
Posts: 520
Joined: 28 Sep 2002, 19:17
Location: Louisville, KY, USA
Contact:

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#518

Post by williamjpellas » 22 Oct 2019, 01:55

Grunden is the most honest critic of Wilcox's work of whom I am aware, and he at least makes an attempt at trying to frame his criticism within a larger discussion of the historiography of the WWII Japanese work in and around Hungnam, North Korea.

So, I'll give him that. And....that's about it.

First, Grunden's book came out in 1998. So, more than 20 years ago. There has been a great deal more archival digging done by dozens of serious researchers and scholars since that time. And no, Wilcox is by no means the only one saying and, in some cases, writing the same kinds of things that he is saying in his book.

Second, Grunden is the kind of guy who likes to make great hay out of such crucial fine points of scholarship as Wilcox calling certain Japanese captured by the Russians at Hungnam "scientists" when--- 8O wait, stop the presses, great googily-moogily!!!! 8O ---they were "really" chemists. Ummm. Soooo, evidently because they were "chemists" and not "scientists" (assuming Grunden is even accurate on this point), that somehow "proves" the Japanese were NOT trying to build an atomic bomb in Korea? Oh, that's right, I forgot. There's no applied industrial chemistry that goes into the production of nuclear weapons. Silly me.

The bottom line is that the great majority of people who try to dismiss Wilcox do so not because of the quality of his research or the likelihood of his conclusions, but rather because publicly decrying the atomic bombing missions is one of the ways in which the post-WWII left gains "cred" in their world. It's part of their "religion".

Again, I could go on. Instead, I will encourage anyone reading this to read the Third Edition of Japan's Secret War for themselves, paying particular attention to the extensive footnotes and bibliography. After you have read Wilcox's narrative, read his sources and draw your own conclusions.

Genro
Member
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Jul 2014, 10:08

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#519

Post by Genro » 30 Oct 2019, 15:10

I would agree on a number of your point regarding Grunden‘s publications. He has been heavily influence by Masakatsu Yamazaki’s ‘interpretations’. A glaring example of these interpretation is the Japan Times article of 7th March 2003. There is either a misunderstand or a ‘un-intentioned’ distortion.
Wartime Nuclear Weapons Research in Germany and Japan.
Walter E. Grunden, Mark Walker, and Masakatsu Yamazaki.
An extract from this publication:-

When out of complete ignorance one of the officers asked Nishina why he did not simply use conventional explosives instead of uranium, Nishina, who as a civilian scientist might have been expected to show deference to a military official, boldly replied, “That’s nonsense”.

Grunden references this to Richard Rhodes book i.e.

Nobu-uji: If uranium is to be used as an explosive, 10 Kg is required. Why not use 10 Kg of conventional explosive? Nishina: That’s nonsense.
This statement has been quoted so many time as to be perceived as fact.

What was actually said:
-
•On 2nd July 43, Nishina tells Nobu-uji that the new explosive (U 235) requires a minimum of 10 Kg but this will not explodes unless an extra 10 Kg is added. But even then not all of it will explode, only a portion of it, the rest will be lost. Added to that, the bomb would requires an enormously heavy container.

On 2nd Feb 44, Nobu-uji enquires about the extra 10 Kg.
Nobu-uji: “I understand that in order for the chain reaction of fission to take place, it is necessary to have an extra 10 Kg of uranium at all time but does the chain reaction work also on this 10 Kg ? ”
Nishina’s reply is not recorded but no doubt along the lines of the July 43 meeting.

Nobu-uji then enquires about the enormous container.
“To use liquid oxygen as an explosive in a battle field, it needs quite a strong’ bombe’ container. Such a strong bombe must be also needed in the case of uranium.”
Nishina: “That is so but uranium would explode without oxygen or air”.

On 17th Nov.44, Nobu-uji enquires yet again about the extra uranium.
“Though the critical mass of uranium is 10 Kg, in the case of a bomb can’t the extra be replaced instead by conventional explosives? ”
Nishina: “(Sore wa dame.) That cannot be done. The chain reaction will stop if there is not enough uranium. Neutrons would escape if they don’t collide with U 235. When there is an extra 10 Kg, only then do neutrons react successively ( tsugi kara tsugi e ) inside without escaping”.

AllenM
Member
Posts: 92
Joined: 18 Sep 2018, 05:01
Location: USA

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#520

Post by AllenM » 01 Nov 2019, 22:20

I hope the emotional atmosphere here can pause long enough to hear a different piece of information. The Germans and Japanese did exchange materials and technology under a program called Yanagi. See the book Yanagi by Mark Felton. While this book is incomplete, it provides a good picture.

Next was the Japanese scientist who worked at the Riken Institute during the war. Kazuo Kuroda kept secret documents, which had been ordered destroyed, with him when he came to the United States. He was a professor at the University of Arkansas. When he died, his widow returned the documents to the Riken Institute. A portion were published in the newspaper, Asahi Simbun. Experts stated the bomb would not have been very powerful.

User avatar
T. A. Gardner
Member
Posts: 3546
Joined: 02 Feb 2006, 01:23
Location: Arizona

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#521

Post by T. A. Gardner » 04 Nov 2019, 00:14

I read through this thread just now. In all of it, some pretty basic questions were never answered. These include:

What was the size of this program? How many did it employ in R&D, how many in manufacturing etc.? I'd figure the R&D side at hundreds at most, well shy of a thousand.

Next, was this an IJA or IJN program? Or, were there two separate programs, one for each service?

Were the Japanese even aware of plutonium and how it could be made?

I get the impression reading through all the posts here that the program was miniscule, a few hundred scientists and technicians at most. Given the Japanese radar program for most of the war employed around 600 people split evenly between the Navy and Army with little or no interaction, that the Japanese nuclear program was equally small and possibly one service only.

The bottom line for me at the moment is there's no convincing evidence of a large program of any sort to enrich uranium or find another path to a bomb.

After Rutherford in the US discovered Plutonium, the government classified that discovery. The British weren't told until very late in the war the US had even discovered it, let alone had gone into full scale production. The Germans certainly didn't know about it. Did the Japanese? If so, how?

So, while those in this thread argue over details, the big picture doesn't look promising, at least in my view.

AllenM
Member
Posts: 92
Joined: 18 Sep 2018, 05:01
Location: USA

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#522

Post by AllenM » 04 Nov 2019, 21:09

Your elaborate dismissal ignores the evidence. The Japanese had atom bomb plans that were smuggled out and later returned. Contact the Asahi Shimbun to get a copy of what they published or the Riken Institute.

Genro
Member
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Jul 2014, 10:08

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#523

Post by Genro » 04 Nov 2019, 23:14

The documents you refer to are part of 27 pages, hand written in an old fashion style of Japanese by an engineer Ishida-san and are the transcript of the meetings between Dir. Nishina and Lt. Gen. Nobu-uji. They are known as the TONIZO documents which is the abbreviation of To Dai Ni Zohisho., Tokyo 2nd Arsenal.
Without some knowledge of the mathematics and physics of the atomic bomb they would be difficult to translate.

User avatar
T. A. Gardner
Member
Posts: 3546
Joined: 02 Feb 2006, 01:23
Location: Arizona

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#524

Post by T. A. Gardner » 04 Nov 2019, 23:22

AllenM wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 21:09
Your elaborate dismissal ignores the evidence. The Japanese had atom bomb plans that were smuggled out and later returned. Contact the Asahi Shimbun to get a copy of what they published or the Riken Institute.
If this was addressed to me, my "dismissal" isn't one. I asked some very reasonable questions and then stated my personal skepticism. I'd still like to see the questions answered. After all, having an "org chart" of the Japanese program would be very useful to figuring it out.

Genro
Member
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Jul 2014, 10:08

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#525

Post by Genro » 04 Nov 2019, 23:32

For those who might be interested, there is an excellent article on Japanese submarines and their involvement with Germany. It is speculated that two Japanese submarine had a cargo of Uranium oxide, though both were sunk, one in the Bay of Biscay and the other 3 days out from Singapore.

https://codenames.info/operation/yanagi/

Post Reply

Return to “Japan at War 1895-1945”