The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
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AllenM
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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#526

Post by AllenM » 05 Nov 2019, 01:45

To T.A. Gardner,

My reply was direct. Contact the Japanese newspaper and the Riken Institiute for more information. If any documents from the Riken Institute survived the war, or American interrogation reports are available, then the structure of the Japanese atomic project may be available. The full project may still be classified as the German atomic project is still classified. In any case, expert review of the documents returned to Riken concluded that the bomb would not be very powerful. That information is available.

To return to my German example, there appear to have been three projects. One run by the Army, the Reichspost and the SS. How much information has been released regarding the full structure? Only fragments. I have seen more American documents published in German sources than in the US. Your questions are reasonable but most of the relevant information has been withheld.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#527

Post by OpanaPointer » 10 Nov 2019, 14:54

AllenM wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 21:09
Your elaborate dismissal ignores the evidence.
Your dismissal of the "dismissal" ignores reality.
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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#528

Post by AllenM » 11 Nov 2019, 00:32

And your response says nothing. Get the book by Robert Wilcox.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#529

Post by OpanaPointer » 11 Nov 2019, 01:22

Go read a book by someone who knows fantasy from reality.
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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#530

Post by Genro » 19 Nov 2019, 11:29

For those who might be interested, there was an article published in NITROCELLILOSE November 1940 by Dr. Alfred Setibacher. Zurish titled:-
Der amerikanische Super-Sprengstoff U-“235”.
He writes of a bomb capable of melting tanks and destroying military bunkers. This article was translated into Japanese at the time, most probably by Takeo Yasuda . The concept of an atomic bomb was widely known at the time indeed Perrin was the first to use the term ‘critical mass’ though his estimate was many tons.
The idea of a ‘race for the bomb’ though is a fallacy, The German group under Heisenberg was engaged in ‘proof of concept ‘of a nuclear reactor and the Japanese group under Nishina the ‘proof of concept ‘ of a bomb. One Clusius-Dickel column, one centrifuge or a cyclotron do not make a full blown project. Unlike Britain and America, in Germany and Japan the technology and enormity of the task was not comprehended further up the hierarchical chain of command, particularly in the case of Japan.
There was no atomic bomb tested at Hungnam or Thuringa or for that matter Rhydymwyn in Wales! There are many popular publications on these events but sometimes the facts do get in the way of a good story.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#531

Post by williamjpellas » 06 Dec 2019, 06:16

T. A. Gardner wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 00:14
I read through this thread just now. In all of it, some pretty basic questions were never answered. These include:

What was the size of this program? How many did it employ in R&D, how many in manufacturing etc.? I'd figure the R&D side at hundreds at most, well shy of a thousand.

The Japanese nuclear weapons effort, like that of Nazi Germany (with which it was at least partially connected), was a "black project". In US terms, it was "above top secret". In addition, great quantities of paper records were destroyed at war's end, probably with at least the tacit approval if not the active participation of the United States. Traces of the effort survived simply because it was, and probably still is, impossible to completely eliminate all of the evidence of a sizable heavy industrial program. It takes a good deal of time and effort to piece the puzzle pieces together, and even then there is no getting around the need for informed guesswork because much information remains missing and likely gone forever. But enough survived for the broad outlines---and some specific details---to be accurately described.

Next, was this an IJA or IJN program? Or, were there two separate programs, one for each service?

There were in fact at least four (4) atomic bomb projects undertaken by Japan during WWII. One of these, the Imperial Navy's Project F-Go, was also interested in propulsion, as was the US Navy's own nuclear project under Philip Abelson which was subsequently folded into the larger Manhattan Engineer District. The first to get underway was probably the Japanese Army's Project Ni in 1940, under Professor Yoshio Nishina at the Riken Institute north of Tokyo. This was initially known as "Project Aeropower", likely a nod to its chief early mover and shaker, General Takeo Yasuda, who was the head of the Army's Aeronautical Technical Research Institute. The Navy effort was launched in 1943, though considerable earlier research had been done under Professor Bunsaku Arakatsu and others at Kyoto Imperial University. A third project was organized under the auspices of the Kwantung Army in Manchuria---like the German SS, this was a "state within a state" formation---though not much is known about it other than a few bits and pieces gathered by the OSS. There is one known OSS file about the Manchuria - Kwantung Army project, code-named "VERONA". Several documents from this file are quoted and cited in the Third Edition of Robert Wilcox's book, Japan's Secret War. The Japanese Army and Navy later joined forces and pooled their resources for their last gasp, crash program in northern Korea. This is known as "Project F-NZ" in some sources. The following piece, which I wrote on Quora dot com, should serve as a workable introduction, and answers most of the questions you are asking here.

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-J ... iam-Pellas


Were the Japanese even aware of plutonium and how it could be made?

Unquestionably. They were also aware of the bomb-making potential of Uranium-233. Japanese scientists worked on Russian reactors after the war. Whether they had any in operation during the war is uncertain, but there are indications that they did. This is covered in some detail in the Third Edition of Japan's Secret War. I am still working through it and taking notes and hope to return here in the near future to post some of the juicier tidbits. You need to read Wilcox if you want to see the actual evidence for what Japan was doing in WWII with its nuclear weapons research and development. Hundreds of primary source documents are cited in his book.

I get the impression reading through all the posts here that the program was miniscule, a few hundred scientists and technicians at most. Given the Japanese radar program for most of the war employed around 600 people split evenly between the Navy and Army with little or no interaction, that the Japanese nuclear program was equally small and possibly one service only.

Dwight Rider, a former Defense Intelligence Agency targeting officer and longtime civilian intelligence analyst, gives his estimate of the size of the Japanese workforce involved in the project in Korea in Secret War. He believes there were several thousand workers and at least several hundred physicists. Rider is himself a published author and noted expert on the Japanese nuclear weapons effort. He has posted on this site.

The bottom line for me at the moment is there's no convincing evidence of a large program of any sort to enrich uranium or find another path to a bomb.

After Rutherford in the US discovered Plutonium, the government classified that discovery. The British weren't told until very late in the war the US had even discovered it, let alone had gone into full scale production. The Germans certainly didn't know about it. Did the Japanese? If so, how?

Rutherford didn't discover plutonium. Glenn Seaborg did, though German physicists were already aware that it could be produced in a reactor. They called it "Element 94" or "Eka Osmium". The Germans very definitely knew about transuranics and certainly produced laboratory quantities of them, at bare minimum. I personally believe they did more than this. Walter Gerlach mentioned one transuranic element, neptunium, during his postwar internment at Farm Hall in England.

So, while those in this thread argue over details, the big picture doesn't look promising, at least in my view.
Last edited by williamjpellas on 07 Dec 2019, 03:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#532

Post by williamjpellas » 06 Dec 2019, 06:34

AllenM wrote:
01 Nov 2019, 22:20
I hope the emotional atmosphere here can pause long enough to hear a different piece of information. The Germans and Japanese did exchange materials and technology under a program called Yanagi. See the book Yanagi by Mark Felton. While this book is incomplete, it provides a good picture.

Next was the Japanese scientist who worked at the Riken Institute during the war. Kazuo Kuroda kept secret documents, which had been ordered destroyed, with him when he came to the United States. He was a professor at the University of Arkansas. When he died, his widow returned the documents to the Riken Institute. A portion were published in the newspaper, Asahi Simbun. Experts stated the bomb would not have been very powerful.
The "experts" cited in the BBC News web article you are referring to in your post were not named by the author, Jane Warr. Nor did the Papers contain an actual bomb design, as such, though they did describe highly technical discussions of actual nuclear weapon physics. This included a calculation by Nishina which yielded an estimate of 26 kilotons, so I don't know how that equates to a "weaker weapon", as the BBC stated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2170881.stm

Genro claims that Nishina's calculation was not an estimate of the explosive yield of an atomic bomb. I don't know what else besides a nuclear or other extremely large kaboom is notated in kilotons.

Nearly all of the mainstream media pieces about the Kuroda Papers contain significant errors, misquotes, or distortions. The BBC piece is in my opinion the most accurate among the traditional news sites but it misses the mark on a couple of important points. We have discussed the content and the meaning of the Kuroda Papers at great length elsewhere in this gigantic thread; you have to dig for it, but the information is there. Genro has posted a number of sections from the Papers. Robert Wilcox goes into considerable detail about them in the Third Edition of his book, Japan's Secret War. I also have a copy of an English language translation but have not looked at them in exhaustive detail. I did exchange a number of emails concerning the Kuroda Papers with both Wilcox and Dwight Rider, who was one of the expert researchers consulted by Wilcox for the latest update of his book.
Last edited by williamjpellas on 06 Dec 2019, 06:44, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#533

Post by williamjpellas » 06 Dec 2019, 06:38

OpanaPointer wrote:
11 Nov 2019, 01:22
Go read a book by someone who knows fantasy from reality.
So, Wilcox's book is "fantasy". I see.

Have you actually read the book, or are you one of the myriad of "critics" who dismisses it without bothering to read it? If you have read it---particularly the annotated Third Edition---I presume you will gladly provide me and everyone here with your reasons, including specific disputed citations and passages, for rejecting it.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#534

Post by Genro » 06 Dec 2019, 14:02

In Wilcox’s book there is in a section (chapter 15), an account of the separation of U 235.
The following is a translation and explanatory notes from the hand written document of what Dir. Nishina said.

Riken Institute, Tokyo, 17th November 1944. Tonizo documents..
Dr. Y Nishina, Lt.Gen. R Nobu-uj and Ishida (scribe.).

3. The separation and condensation of the light and heavy UF.
Nishina; The separating tower operates with the inside at 350-400 degrees C and the cooled outer using warm water at 50 degrees C. The two valves are made of special type of metal as we cannot use glass or grease.
{The alloy Monel (28%Cu, 66% Ni, 3% Fe, 3% Mn ) is commonly used for this application.}
(The inner tower chamber was evacuated) and UF6 which is initially cooled to -30 degrees C is heated to 60 degrees C thus filling the chamber.
{Below 56 degrees C, UF6 is a solid at atmospheric pressure and at temperatures above this sublimes into a gas. At -30 degrees C the vapour pressure miniscule but at 60 C degrees about 940 mm Hg. }
It was found that after filling, about 150 grams of the 200-300 gram of UF disappeared and that the pressure dropped about 2-3 mm Hg per hour. We thought that this that it may be due to impurities in the UF6, but when we used the latest purified UF6 the same thing happened. It seemed that the UF6 attacked the copper wall and the copper debris/powder ‘some of which was left inside’ that was used for the airtight packing. We also thought that when UF6 came into contact with water that much heat was generated and the glass container was attacked and may be responsible for the impurities.
{UF6 reacts with many common metals to form a bi-fluoride protective layer. Modern uranium enrichment equipment is flushed with chlorine tri-fluoride, a process termed ‘pickling’. This was undoubtedly the cause of the loss of UF6.}
The optimum pressure of operation was found to be 0.6 of the initial value (500 mm Hg). Samples of UF6 from the top of the tower and the input feed were hydrolysed (kasui bunkai) and which for practical purpose was then reduced to UO3.
{ UF6 + 2H2O > UO2F2 + 4HF, with much heat being generated. UO2F2 is very soluble in water but evaporation would reduce this to UO3F2.nH2O which can be decompose above 300 degrees C to uranium oxide, a less hazards form to handle. }
The two samples were irradiated together with thermal neutrons using the cyclotron. Unlike U238, U235 under goes fission with slow neutrons. We worked around the clock the other day on this test.
{The technique involves placing the samples in a container of water and irradiating them with high energy neutrons. The slowing down length from high energy to thermal energy for water is between 5 and 6 cm. Modern day values of thermal neutron fission cross-section for U235 and U238 are 580 barns and 18 micro barns respectively. }.
The resultant radioactivity is a measure of the enrichment. (Kayonishite) thus the U235 which was initially 0.7% is now at the level of approximately 10%. In order to further enrich the light hexafluoride, a further separating tower unit is in the middle of construction.
{November 17th is the last meeting documented and therefore it is not known if the second separating tower became fully operational but both were destroyed in a bombing raid the following year.}

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#535

Post by OpanaPointer » 06 Dec 2019, 14:04

williamjpellas wrote:
06 Dec 2019, 06:38
OpanaPointer wrote:
11 Nov 2019, 01:22
Go read a book by someone who knows fantasy from reality.
So, Wilcox's book is "fantasy". I see.

Have you actually read the book, or are you one of the myriad of "critics" who dismisses it without bothering to read it? If you have read it---particularly the annotated Third Edition---I presume you will gladly provide me and everyone here with your reasons, including specific disputed citations and passages, for rejecting it.
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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#536

Post by T. A. Gardner » 06 Dec 2019, 14:26

Unquestionably. They were also aware of the bomb-making potential of Uranium-233. Japanese scientists worked on Russian reactors after the war. Whether they had any in operation during the war is uncertain, but there are indications that they did. This is covered in some detail in the Third Edition of Robert Wilcox's book, Japan's Secret War. I am still working through it and taking notes and hope to return here in the near future to post some of the juicier tidbits. You need to read Wilcox if you want to see the actual evidence for what Japan was doing in WWII with its nuclear weapons research and development. Hundreds of primary source documents are cited in his book.
How could the Japanese be aware of Plutonium and it's properties? Plutonium was discovered in the US December 14 1940 and the US government immediately made the discovery secret. Nothing was published on it until declassified in 1948. I could see the Soviets knowing about it via spying by late war, but Japan (and Germany) has zero means to do likewise.
The Japanese certainly didn't discover it on their own.

I also seriously doubt the Japanese had a working reactor of any sort. Just the monetary and material investment would have been substantial enough to keep that from happening.

You mention Neptunium. That was discovered before Plutonium and the discovery was published so that element could have been known to the Germans and Japanese. It doesn't mean Plutonium was however.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#537

Post by williamjpellas » 07 Dec 2019, 03:14

I've been reading on conspiracy theories since the '60s. I don't have time to waste on La-La Landistan.

Yep. That's what I thought. Another "critic" of Wilcox who can't be bothered to actually read him. Have a nice day, dude.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#538

Post by williamjpellas » 07 Dec 2019, 03:44

How could the Japanese be aware of Plutonium and it's properties? Plutonium was discovered in the US December 14 1940 and the US government immediately made the discovery secret. Nothing was published on it until declassified in 1948. I could see the Soviets knowing about it via spying by late war, but Japan (and Germany) has zero means to do likewise.

No. There was a very active and far-flung atomic espionage effort undertaken by the Axis. It had Abwehr (German intelligence) support and at least partial oversight but was run by and through supposedly "neutral" Spain. Angel Alcazar de Velasco, known to the Abwehr by the code-name "Guillermo", was the spymaster. His best agent in the US was apparently code-named "Sebastian". I had found exactly one (1) reference to Sebastian with a websearch but can't find it right now. The article I saw indicated that he was a double or triple agent who was perfectly willing to sell his wares to both Axis and Allies alike. There is no shortage of snark and derision about de Velasco elsewhere on this site but some of his contemporaries had considerable respect for him and believed him to be a cunning and dangerous spy.

FYI: https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Japanese- ... iam-Pellas


The Japanese certainly didn't discover it on their own.

Hard to say on this point. It depends largely on whether they actually got a "pile" (reactor) going during WWII. There were a number of competent nuclear physicists in several countries in the late 1930s and early 1940s who were aware that a number of transuranic elements could be produced in a reactor if one could be built. I am still reviewing the section about Japanese reactor R&D in the Third Edition of Secret War, so I can't offer an informed opinion just yet. It is clear, however, from the Kuroda Papers and a number of other sources that the Japanese had definitely done considerable theoretical work towards the construction of reactors as far back as the late 1930s. For sure they were interested in the potential use of U-233 in a bomb, and that is most readily produced in quantity by a reactor.

From page 275 in Wilcox:

"Bruce Cumings, a Korean expert and former chair of the University of Chicago's history department, acknowledges in "Origins of the Korean War", his lengthy, two-volume study of the conflict, that "Korea was the center of Japanese attempts to acquire fissionable material and build a bomb." The effort "centered on the great chemical factories built by Noguchi Jun in Hungnam; here the Japanese processed more than 90 percent of the monazite mined in Korea in 1944, seeking to recover sufficient amounts of thorium for a bomb." While cautioning back in 1990 (before more information supporting Snell's claims surfaced) that David Snell's report of an atomic test off Korea "seems far-fetched and most unlikely", Cumings---probably aware of the Japanese problems in getting enough refined uranium isotope---nevertheless concluded, "The Noguchi interests...and Japanese militarists," aided by other enablers, "put a major effort into a thorium bomb made from the raw material of Korean monazite."


I also seriously doubt the Japanese had a working reactor of any sort. Just the monetary and material investment would have been substantial enough to keep that from happening.

You mention Neptunium. That was discovered before Plutonium and the discovery was published so that element could have been known to the Germans and Japanese. It doesn't mean Plutonium was however.


Fair observation. I hope to have more and better information on this point in the near future.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#539

Post by OpanaPointer » 07 Dec 2019, 12:26

williamjpellas wrote:
07 Dec 2019, 03:14
I've been reading on conspiracy theories since the '60s. I don't have time to waste on La-La Landistan.

Yep. That's what I thought. Another "critic" of Wilcox who can't be bothered to actually read him. Have a nice day, dude.
Try reading something besides Wilcox. Like the sum total of information available on this matter.
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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

#540

Post by AllenM » 08 Dec 2019, 01:28

I see that the hand waving is being kept to a minimum here. The British Target Force or T-Force had a number of predetermined targets as it entered formerly German held countries and into Germany itself. This included "Japanese intelligence targets." (T-Force by Sean Longden, pg. 47). "For these early operations it was highlighted that Japanese intelligence targets were of 'vital importance.' All follow-up investigations were to be handled by staff appointed by SHAEF. It was also stated that all Japanese persons were to be detained, with officers being told to test anyone with a request to say 'Hullo' as it was noted that the Japanese are physically incapable of of pronouncing the letter 'I' and will therefore say "Hurro". The footnote given cites National Archives WO171/3865.

Did the Germans do any work related to atomic fusion? It appears some work was done.
Kernfusion und Kernwaffenentwicklung: Fusionsforschung in Deutschland bis 1945 von Rolf-Günter Hauk

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