The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
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williamjpellas
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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by williamjpellas » 15 Jan 2024 00:08

There have been several references in this thread to the 1995 press conference in Tokyo at which WWII Japanese Army nuclear scientist Tatsusaburo Suzuki disclosed many long hidden details of Japan's attempt to build its own atomic bombs during the conflict. The best article I have found about this event (among several others that were poorly written) is the New Scientist piece found here:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... me-a-bomb/

It turns out that a complete audio recording of this press conference does exist, and it was recently uploaded to YouTube. You will hear Suzuki's Japanese language presentation, and also the English version by way of a translator. This is very important and should be of interest to anyone who wants to learn the true history of Japan's WWII nuclear program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4DThUr7bsY&t=2s

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by ewest89 » 15 Jan 2024 02:07


Genro
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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by Genro » 15 Jan 2024 15:21

A small note that might be of interest.
An extract from Dr. Stettbacher article ‘ The American super explosive U235’, was translated into Japanese and included in the’ Tonizo’ report of April 1943.

Der amerikanische Super-Sprengstoff “U-235”.
Von Dr, Alfred Stettbacher, Zurich.
NITROCLELLUOSE November 1940. Page2.
“Zerfallzeit sowahl zum Ausgluhen agoanzer Festungen, ala auch zum augenblicklichen Zusammenschmelzen von Tank oder Bunken anzuwenden,”

German -> English.
“Destroy entire military complexes, melting Tanks and Bunkers instantly.”

On Uranium. Tonizo April 1943. Sheet 5.
German -> Japanese -> English.
(atomic fission) “it’s use would burn a fortress to ashes and destroy the coal store of ships in an instant.”

Most probably written by Takao Yasuda who was military attaché to the Japanese Embassy in the 30’s and acquire some german but still required a dictionary to translate.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by williamjpellas » 18 Jan 2024 04:35

Interesting that Stettbacher termed it "the American super explosive U-235". Evidently Herr Doktor was aware of the Manhattan Project, otherwise why call is specifically an American development? There were in fact at least three (3) entities in Germany that had penetrated the Allied atomic bomb program by mid-1943 at the latest. These were: Luftwaffe intelligence, the Reichspost, and the Abwehr. By "Reichspost" I mean the clandestine nuclear weapon program that was concealed within the bureaucracy of the German Post Office and also the closely affiliated superlaboratory of Manfred von Ardenne, which was funded in part with Reichspost revenue. Given the close working arrangement between the Reichspost and the SS (see Dr. Todd Rider's book, Forgotten Creators on this point), it is all but certain that the SS also knew what the US and its Allies were attempting to do, though I have yet to see any specific documentation about SS knowledge of the Manhattan Project, whereas I have seen documentation for the other three.

Note that at least two (2) Japanese worked in von Ardenne's laboratory for some time during the war years. These men were officially there to study German radar. While this is certainly possible, I think it much more likely that they were posted to Berlin-Lichterfelde to facilitate cooperation between Japan and Germany on the development of nuclear weapons.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by Genro » 19 Jan 2024 12:29

Stettbacher’s paper pre-dates the Manhattan project (Oct 1941). He quotes a number of references, in particular T. Hagiwara 1939 and, Wheeler & Bohr both 1940. The Wheeler-Bohr paper is the key to the realisation of an atomic bomb and was confirmed by separation by mass spectrometry of the uranium isotopes. Many then realised the practicality of making an atomic bomb.

As an example Hagiwara irradiate natural Uranium with thermal neutrons and measures a neutron yield of 2.5, a total cross-section of 9 barns of which 3 barns are due to fission. Shortly after this Wheeler and Bohr in America theorise that it is only U235 that undergoes fission with thermal neutrons. Hagiwara no doubt realised that as U235 is only 0.7% the actual fission cross-section is over 300 barns. Hagiwara theorized on the possibility of an atomic bomb and gave a lecture on this to the navy at Yokohama. An army officer wrote a short version which appears in the Tonizo documents. Unfortunately this has been miss translated as a hydrogen bomb.

There was no great secret about the practicality of an atomic bomb and it would seem logical that since many of the publications originating in America that America was most likely to eventually become involved. Only the British project was secret until they realised the enormity of the project and cajoled America to get involved.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by Genro » 22 Jan 2024 10:47

Tonizo document April 1943. Page 5.

U235 Chobakuretsu sei genshi. 23 May 1941. Tokutaro Hagiwara.

The super explosive properties of the U235 atom.

' If a considerable quantity of U235 could be produced and mixed with a suitable concentration of hydrogen and of suitable dimensions and volume, it is hopefully expected that it could someday realise the possibly of a practical and useful ‘triggered’ explosive (ki-bakuritsu) material '.

‘Ki’ means to awaken, initiate or trigger and in the printed version held my Hagiwara’s daughter this kangi it is not ‘Ki’ but ’Cho’ meaning splendid, magnificent or super depending on the context.
While Hagiwara’s idea would not make a bomb, the reaction being too slow, it would go critical.

56 years later 0n 11th March 1997 at Tokaimura 16 kg of 18.8% enriched uranium 235 in the form of an aqueous solution (hydrogen) was instead of being mixed in a safe buffer container poured into a container some 45 cm dia. This solution is brought up to about 20 litres (suitable concentration) and at about 35 cm depth becomes a ‘suitable size and volume’. It then went critical and there was an intense burst of radiation for many hours resulting in the death of the two operators. The concept of Kaizen may well have played a part in this accident.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by ewest89 » 25 Jan 2024 18:23

It seems the British sometimes resort to a kind of overclaiming. The United States acquired atomic bombs from Germany. The sharing of atomic research with the British ended soon after the war.

"Wartime UK-US nuclear collaboration was brought to an end by the 1946 US Energy Act (the McMahon Act), following which, in 1947, the Attlee Government decided to resume an independent UK programme to develop an atomic weapon. The UK successfully tested its first atomic bomb in October 1952."

The practicality of the atomic bomb was kept highly secret. Early reports gave no one specific information about how to build one.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by Genro » 26 Jan 2024 19:28

Time line.
The patent for a sustained nuclear chain reaction in uranium is assigned to the British Admiralty GB630726A March, 1936 ( Leo Szilard ). Secret until publication in 1947.

The concept of a critical mass of uranium was developed by Francis Perrin March 1939 .

Rudolf Peieris and Otto Frisch developed the concept of an atomic bomb using uranium 235 in March 1940 at Birmingham University.
Tube Alloy project at Rhydymwyn in Wales initiated.

Maud report 1940, transferred the USA 1941, Manhattan project initiated October 1941.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by williamjpellas » 29 Jan 2024 06:32

You left out the formal launch of the Japanese Army's atomic bomb project in the fall of 1940. Known initially by the code name AEROPOWER---doubtless a nod to General Takeo Yasuda in the Army's Aviation Technology Research Institute---it was later renamed "Ni", after Yoshio Nishina, the lead scientist in this end of the overall WWII Japanese nuclear effort.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by Genro » 29 Jan 2024 13:52

The race for the Atomic Bomb ?

From the Tonizo documents.

Dr. Yoshio NIshina talks with Lt.Gen. Nobu-uji.
Context, the development of an atomic bomb.

“There is a further reason why to do this is not wise/ appropriate/ recommended ( fu tekito ). To get the maximum explosion and temperature it is necessary to retain/confine it for a period of 1/30 to 1/20 micro-second. This would require a massive tamper, the weight of which would be enormous and because of this it is consider not wise/suitable ( tekito narazaru ) to undertake.”

The scribe has recorded this conversation with the minimum of words and many mistakes, and given the contextual nature of Japanese makes translation problematic.
The phrase ‘ fu tekito’ implies some doubt were as ‘ tekito narazaru ‘ it more affirmative. ‘Narazaro’ is an old fashion ’man’s’ word and more authoritative.
The next subject discussed is the Polonium- Beryllium neutron initiator.
Given Nishina’s rather startling opinion on this aspect of the project, I suspect there may have been an ‘of the record’ discussion following his words.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by williamjpellas » 20 Feb 2024 14:19

Regarding beryllium, at least one German u-boat which was attempting to deliver beryllium to Japan was captured by the United States. Thus there were two submarines involved in the underwater cargo route connecting Germany with Japan that fell into American hands, not just one (the now well known U-234). I should add that these are the only two that I have come across in my reading thus far. There may have been others.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by ewest89 » 20 Feb 2024 21:28

BIOS Final Report No.158. Production of Beryllia and Beryllium at Degussa Plants. British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee. 1945.

Degussa is a contraction of Deutsche Gold- und Silber-Scheideanstalt vormals Roessler, or German Gold and Silver Refinery, formerly Roessler. The transfer of chemicals and metals to and from Japan by U-boat was called Yanagi. Only one, incomplete, book exists regarding this underwater trade method.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by williamjpellas » 21 Feb 2024 00:29

ewest89 wrote:
20 Feb 2024 21:28
BIOS Final Report No.158. Production of Beryllia and Beryllium at Degussa Plants. British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee. 1945.

Degussa is a contraction of Deutsche Gold- und Silber-Scheideanstalt vormals Roessler, or German Gold and Silver Refinery, formerly Roessler. The transfer of chemicals and metals to and from Japan by U-boat was called Yanagi. Only one, incomplete, book exists regarding this underwater trade method.
Many kriegsmarine files at NARA remain completely off limits to this day, particularly the ones that have to do with the German Navy nuclear physicist Otto Haxel. This is surely an odd state of affairs if neither the German nor Japanese nuclear weapons programs amounted to a hill of beans. Certainly the yanagi missions should be thoroughly researched in the US, Germany, and Japan.

Simon Gunson says that the SS utilized its own submarines during the war. According to him, these were at least a handful of wrecked u-boats that were salvaged from shallow waters. If this is so, it would be another aspect of the known cooperation between the two most important Axis nations in the development of atomic bombs, particularly later in the conflict when the German side of the overall Axis nuclear effort came under the direct control of the SS and General-Engineer Hans Kammler.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by ewest89 » 21 Feb 2024 01:34

Until recently, it was not known that the SS had their own paratroopers.
https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/ss-fallsc ... q=62214306

As the war drew to a close, the SS gained control over all advanced weapons. Based on my research, it was SS General Kammler who negotiated the final transfer of advanced weapons and equipment. This occurred during the October-December 1944 time frame. However, certain Allies were partly cut out. The U.S., as the largest potential recipient, meant that the other Allies would be less suitable recipients for the most valuable weapons. In consideration of the fact that future conflicts/problems would likely occur, the country with the best economy and manufacturing capabilities would be the logical choice.

Late in the war, the Type XXIII U-boat came into service. From time to time, unpublished photos appear of the Type XXI. I wonder now if a few were allocated to the SS since these were the most advanced.

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Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by NSpencer » 21 Feb 2024 10:30

ewest89 wrote:
21 Feb 2024 01:34
Until recently, it was not known that the SS had their own paratroopers.
https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/ss-fallsc ... q=62214306

Except they were known to exist by the allies during the war. Problem with you not knowing anything about ww2 history, is that you demean this website with your uniformed revisionist post content.

ewest89 wrote:
25 Jan 2024 18:23
It seems the British sometimes resort to a kind of overclaiming. The United States acquired atomic bombs from Germany.
Fact free. See the link you plagiarised from.

ewest89 wrote:
25 Jan 2024 18:23
The sharing of atomic research with the British ended soon after the war.

"Wartime UK-US nuclear collaboration was brought to an end by the 1946 US Energy Act (the McMahon Act), following which, in 1947, the Attlee Government decided to resume an independent UK programme to develop an atomic weapon. The UK successfully tested its first atomic bomb in October 1952."

This is a copy paste from https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... sheet5.pdf please desist in plagiarising and mis representing others works and cite where you copy past from, not least as the document you plagiarised and mis represented by omission, goes on to show you the Uk and US collaboration was resume and explains the rest of your nonsense claims.

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