The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
User avatar
T. A. Gardner
Member
Posts: 3564
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 00:23
Location: Arizona

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 21 Feb 2024 16:36

ewest89 wrote:
21 Feb 2024 01:34
As the war drew to a close, the SS gained control over all advanced weapons. Based on my research, it was SS General Kammler who negotiated the final transfer of advanced weapons and equipment. This occurred during the October-December 1944 time frame. However, certain Allies were partly cut out. The U.S., as the largest potential recipient, meant that the other Allies would be less suitable recipients for the most valuable weapons. In consideration of the fact that future conflicts/problems would likely occur, the country with the best economy and manufacturing capabilities would be the logical choice.

Late in the war, the Type XXIII U-boat came into service. From time to time, unpublished photos appear of the Type XXI. I wonder now if a few were allocated to the SS since these were the most advanced.
Let's see... The above is mostly devoid of actual facts, or so generalized as to be worthless.

As the Allies occupied Germany, they did so into previously agreed to sectors. Britain, France, the US, and Soviets each got an assigned sector. The US and Britian largely cooperated in letting the other access to their sector, but in every case the nation assigned to that sector took the lion's share of what was found in it.
The US and Britain tried hard to move anything they deemed worthwhile out of areas of the eventual Soviet sector they occupied, like the US sweeping through the Mittelwerk V-2 factory. The French often got kicked to the curb trying to get access to advanced technology not in their sector. The US was reluctant to give them access, and when it was granted they were not allowed to take anything physical out, just photograph or otherwise copy documents (under supervision) or to tour facilities.
In many cases, for the British and US, the intent of their collection missions wasn't so much to get some advantage from materials collected as it was to deny these to other nations, particularly the Soviet Union. A lot of what the US and Britain collected was simply shipped home and then ignored after an initial examination.

The Soviets moved in and set up a series of "institutes" in what were often German R&D facilities for a specific technology of interest. Initially, their plan was to simply loot everything out of Germany and let their sector wither on the vine. That led to wholesale havoc as factories were emptied of machinery and left to rot for months at rail yards where transport to the Soviet Union was badly managed.
Each institute tried to round up German engineers, scientists, etc., along with samples of technology of interest. For example, Institut Berlin was set up to deal with surface to air missile technology. The Soviets collected what they could and amassed it there. With Wasserfall for example, the most they had was one incomplete missile along with some random components and a few technicians and low ranked engineers to work on it.
Institut Nordhausen was set up to deal with the Mittelwerk factory and recovery of V-2 missiles and materials.

As for the Type XXIII... The Walther boats were virtual deathtraps. They had too little reserve buoyancy to give them fast submergence rates and a very low silhouette. This resulted in several sinking while surfaced simply because a wave washed over the conning tower. The H2O2 plants were little more than a ticking time bomb. Both Britain and Russia post war dabbled with H2O2 propulsion, and both found it unacceptably dangerous for use on a submarine.
It isn't as if high underwater speed submarines are something new the Germans had a lock on. Japan actually deployed their I 201 class of high-speed boats that they designed internally. The British were the first to try them in WW 1 with the R-class, which could be said to be the first attempt to build a hunter-killer / attack submarine in history.

If anything, the one thing that German U-boats had in technology that the US and Britain did have an interest in, would be the GHG (Gruppenhochtgerat) sonar array, the most advanced version being the late-war Balkon version.

Image

No U-boats were assigned to the SS. They lacked the necessary trained manpower to man one, and Himmler had little interest in naval affairs.

ewest89
Member
Posts: 304
Joined: 04 Oct 2021 20:11
Location: United States

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by ewest89 » 21 Feb 2024 19:19

Interesting and you cite no sources.

As far as German submarine technology, the following might interest you.

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-War-Submari ... 1574885308

From the description: "For both East and West, the modern submarine originated in German U-boat designs obtained at the end of World War II."

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8265
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by Michael Kenny » 21 Feb 2024 19:36

ewest89 wrote:
21 Feb 2024 19:19
Interesting and you cite no sources.


Sources? we aint got no sources. We don't need sources. We don't have to show you any stinking sources.
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 21 Feb 2024 22:38, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8265
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by Michael Kenny » 21 Feb 2024 19:54

ewest89 wrote:
21 Feb 2024 19:19


As far as German submarine technology, the following might interest you.

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-War-Submari ... 1574885308

From the description: "For both East and West, the modern submarine originated in German U-boat designs obtained at the end of World War II."
That is the publishers blurb and not the book. I think this setence in the introduction might interest you

Page xi:
''But the undersea craft produced by the respective
navies rapidly diverged in their designs from
the Type XXI model.''

NSpencer
Member
Posts: 436
Joined: 03 Jan 2024 20:48
Location: IOW UK

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by NSpencer » 21 Feb 2024 22:58

T. A. Gardner wrote:
21 Feb 2024 16:36

As for the Type XXIII... The Walther boats were virtual deathtraps. They had too little reserve buoyancy to give them fast submergence rates and a very low silhouette. This resulted in several sinking while surfaced simply because a wave washed over the conning tower. The H2O2 plants were little more than a ticking time bomb. Both Britain and Russia post war dabbled with H2O2 propulsion, and both found it unacceptably dangerous for use on a submarine.
ewest89 wrote:
21 Feb 2024 19:19
Interesting and you cite no sources.

As far as German submarine technology, the following might interest you.

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-War-Submari ... 1574885308

From the description: "For both East and West, the modern submarine originated in German U-boat designs obtained at the end of World War II."
Interestingly the book you recommend, supports and says the same things ( power plant replaced due to its poor performance in testing) as Mr Gardner, and not yourself, perchance you have not actually read the book?, otherwise its odd you recommend he read what he already knows, and you do not, so it appears more likely that you have yet to read the book.

Note to researchers, dont recommend to others, books your have not read, that support another's post content.



Page 33"However the Walther boats were plagued by mechanical maintenance problems. Also efficiency was low significant power was lost because of the back pressure on the exhaust system as the submarine went deeper." Pages 35/7 for the power plant being unsuitable and being replaced.

daveshoup2MarDiv
Member
Posts: 1039
Joined: 07 Aug 2023 02:55
Location: Hawaii

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by daveshoup2MarDiv » 22 Feb 2024 03:24

ewest89 wrote:
21 Feb 2024 19:19
Interesting and you cite no sources.

As far as German submarine technology, the following might interest you.

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-War-Submari ... 1574885308

From the description: "For both East and West, the modern submarine originated in German U-boat designs obtained at the end of World War II."
USS Albacore and USS Nautilus beg to differ ... as does their progeny, USS Skipjack, and every fleet boat since.

See: [urlhttps://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08585.htm][/url]

and:

https://archive.org/details/1959-04-13_At_Sea

User avatar
T. A. Gardner
Member
Posts: 3564
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 00:23
Location: Arizona

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by T. A. Gardner » 24 Feb 2024 21:40

ewest89 wrote:
21 Feb 2024 19:19
Interesting and you cite no sources.

As far as German submarine technology, the following might interest you.

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-War-Submari ... 1574885308

From the description: "For both East and West, the modern submarine originated in German U-boat designs obtained at the end of World War II."
The USN obtained and operated two Type XXI's for a couple of years after the war.

Image

The USN also examined the Japanese I 201 and I 400 classes.

Image

From there, the US began conversion of existing fleet submarines into high speed underwater boats using, in part, the engineering obtained from those examinations. This became the Guppy program. By the Guppy III program, any resemblance to a Type XXI was superficial as they received the BQG 4 PUFFS sonar system to become the first true hunter-killer attack submarines.

The Russians similarly, used the Type XXI as the starting point for several classes of postwar submarine design.

However, most of what the Type XXI contributed was evolutionary, not revolutionary in nature.

User avatar
ShindenKai
Member
Posts: 670
Joined: 29 Jan 2012 05:43
Location: USA

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by ShindenKai » 11 Mar 2024 06:24

ewest89 wrote:
21 Feb 2024 19:19
Interesting and you cite no sources.

As far as German submarine technology, the following might interest you.

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-War-Submari ... 1574885308

From the description: "For both East and West, the modern submarine originated in German U-boat designs obtained at the end of World War II."
Nope. The IJN I-201 Class Subs influenced their later subs, like the JDS Oyashio Class.

SS-511 being launched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls1Ay2i0f3Q

daveshoup2MarDiv
Member
Posts: 1039
Joined: 07 Aug 2023 02:55
Location: Hawaii

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by daveshoup2MarDiv » 11 Mar 2024 16:41

The design studies that led to Albacore began after VJ Day and she was in the water in 1953 - every modern design (whether nuclear-powered, DE, or AIP) built since then has had a hull much closer to hers than a Type XXI:

Image

Genro
Member
Posts: 88
Joined: 29 Jul 2014 09:08

Re: The Japanese nuclear weapons program

Post by Genro » 15 Apr 2024 14:26

Much has ben written about Japan’s failure to develop an atomic bomb. I would put much of this down to the failure due to the hieratical nature of the chain of command to comprehend the technical and enormity of the project. Japanese society is strongly influenced by ‘giri and ninjo’ duty and obligation.
It would seem to me that Nishina, because of his position in the science community, is some what obligated to under take the project.

In the first meeting 2nd July, Nishina emphasises the need to use the cyclotron for this work but the vacuum tubes were not powerful enough. It is not possible he says to get better one’s as army procurement takes priority but when he gets the suitable vacuum tubes, then the’ important’ work can begin. Nishina then adds that the Americans are planning to build a machine 10 times bigger but does not know if it has been completed.

In the meeting of 17th November the discussion between Lt. Gen. Nobuuji and Dr. Nishina is concerned with the chemistry of uranium particularly uranium hexa-fluoride. This is basic chemistry ( under-graduate) and a disproportionate time seems to have been spent on it.

Lt. Gen. Nobuuji was in charge of the Tadonomia chemicial weapons factory on Ocunoshima island in the inland sea ( Setonaikay ). This is now known as rabbit island due to the abundance of tame rabits.. At the time this island did not appear on a map. This came under To Dai Ni Zohe sho, Tokyo second arsenal i.e. ( TONIZO).
Nobuuji was transferred to Tokyo in 1941 and then became the liaison officer for the atomic bomb project in 1943.

Nobuuji was no doubt out of his depth when it came to nuclear physics but on more familiar ground regarding the chemistry. The dis proportionate time on the chemistry may well have created a better rap-port between them. Nishina does eventually get new vacuum tubes but does not quite get the full power he was expecting. He plans to make some adjustment to the cyclotron, I surmise that this might be an adjustment to the matching network between the high voltage frequency generator and the two D’s of the cyclotron but what ever it was was not understood by the scribe and appears as lines of illegible scribble.

Return to “Japan at War 1895-1945”