Tiger tank for Japan?

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
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LWD
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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by LWD » 21 Sep 2010 11:55

Well the Germans never really got the Me-262 engines working well either.

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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by OpanaPointer » 21 Sep 2010 12:56

LWD wrote:Well the Germans never really got the Me-262 engines working well either.
Transfer of faulty technology? Sounds like some of them wound up in NASA. Oh, wait!

Do we know if the English jet's engines worked better or worse than the -262's?
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LWD
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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by LWD » 21 Sep 2010 14:58

OpanaPointer wrote:
LWD wrote:Well the Germans never really got the Me-262 engines working well either.
Transfer of faulty technology? Sounds like some of them wound up in NASA. Oh, wait!

Do we know if the English jet's engines worked better or worse than the -262's?
from: http://www.456fis.org/ROLLS-ROYCE_WELLA ... ENGINE.htm
The Wellands were rated at 1,600 lbf (7.1 kN), with 180 hours between overhauls. The Jumo 004B, which entering service only a few weeks earlier, was rated at 1,984 lbf (8.8 kN), but required overhaul after 10-20 hours.
I understand that eventually the Me-262 recomended time between overhauls got up to 30 hours. On the otherhand the Wellands likely improved as well. One of the reasons the Meteors didn't fly over German territory is that they didn't want the Germans getting their hands on the British engines.

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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by OpanaPointer » 21 Sep 2010 15:41

LWD wrote:I understand that eventually the Me-262 recomended time between overhauls got up to 30 hours. On the otherhand the Wellands likely improved as well. One of the reasons the Meteors didn't fly over German territory is that they didn't want the Germans getting their hands on the British engines.
And then they sold them to the Soviets. *snork* :roll:
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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Helmut0815 » 23 Sep 2010 18:32

Has there ever been any transfer of technologies or equipment in the other direction, Japan --> Germany or Japan --> Italy?

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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Luftflotte2 » 23 Sep 2010 21:21

I think Germany was frustrated when Japan had little or nothing to give in return for German Technology.
Besides vehicles Japan also got:
examples of the German Type IXD2 submarine Ausf "Monsun" and other submarines, such as the Type IXD2's U-181 (Japanese submarine I-501) and U-862 (I-502), the Italian submarine Comandante Cappellini (I-503), and Reginaldo Giuliani (I-504), the German Type X submarine U-219 (I-505), the Type IXD1 U-195 (I-506), two Type IXC submarines (RO-500 & RO-501), and Flakvierling anti-aircraft cannons, with a disarmed V-2.
I have a picture of one of the submarines and will post it later.

According to decrypted messages from the Japanese embassy in Germany, twelve dismantled V-2 (A-4) rockets were shipped to Japan. These left Bordeaux in August 1944 on the transport U-boats U-219 and U-195, which reached Djakarta in December 1944. A civilian V-2 expert was a passenger on U-234, bound for Japan in May 1945 when the war ended in Europe. The fate of these V-2 rockets is unknown.

The German Focke-Wulf company sent a Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-5, and was contracted to send a Focke-Wulf Fw 200 V-10 (S-1) or Focke-Wulf Ta 152.
The Heinkel company sent examples of the Heinkel He 50 A (manufactured in Japan by Aichi as the D1Y1, Allied codename "Susie"), Heinkel He 70 "Blitz", Heinkel He 112 (V12,12 B-0, Japanese designation A7He1), Heinkel He 100 D-1 (in Japan designated AXHe1), Heinkel He 116 (V5/6), and Heinkel He 118, Heinkel He 119 V7 and V8, Heinkel HD 25, Heinkel HD 62, Heinkel HD 28, Heinkel HD 23, Heinkel He 162 "Volksjager", and Heinkel He 177 A-7 "Greif" designs.
The Bücker company sent its Bücker Bü 131 Jungmann which in Japan was designated the Kokusai Ki-86 (Army) or Kyūshū K9W (Navy Trainer).
Dornier sent its Dornier Do 16 Wal (in Japan made by Kawasaki as the KDN-1), Dornier Do N built as the Kawasaki Army Type 87 heavy bomber, and the Dornier Do C.
Fieseler sent the Fieseler Fi-103 Reichenberg, and Fieseler Fi 156 Storch (redesigned by the Japanese and produced as the Kobeseiko Te-Gō).
The Junkers company sent its Junkers K 37 (developed by the Japanese as the Mitsubishi Ki-1 and Ki-2), Junkers G.38b K51 (Japanese design Mitsubishi Ki-20), Junkers Ju 88 A-1, Junkers Ju 52, Junkers Ju 87 A, Junkers Ju 86 and made sales of its Junkers Ju 290, Junkers Ju 390 and Junkers Ju 488 designs.
The Messerschmitt company sold the Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-3/4, Messerschmitt Me 110, Messerschmitt Me 210 A-2, Messerschmitt Me 163 A/B "Komet" (a Japanese design based only on the partial drawings received was the Mitsubishi J8M/Ki-202 Shusui rocket interceptor) and Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a whose design influenced the Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu; and studied the possibility of the use of the Messerschmitt Me 264. Also sent was the design of the Messerschmitt Me 509, which may have influenced the design of the Yokosuka R2Y1 Keiun reconnaissance plane.
The Arado company sent(?) an example of Arado Ar 196 A-4, which had been traded for the Nakajima E8N.
Focke-Achgelis sent its design Focke-Achgelis Fa 330 Bachstelze, an observation aircraft for submarines, and other aircraft examples.
When it came to aircraft equipment, the Japanese Army fighter Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien ("Tony") used a licence-built Daimler-Benz DB 601A engine which resulted in the Allies believing that it was either a Messerschmitt Bf 109 or an Italian Macchi C.202 Folgore until they examined captured examples. It was also fitted with Mauser MG 151/20 20 mm cannons also built under licence.

Tachikawa Ki-162
The Japanese became involved in the Heinkel He 162 just before Germany's surrender in 1945. It seems that the Japanese were sent data concerning the He 162 not by submarine or courier, but by wire transmission. This transfer occurred in April 1945. What was sent is not known, but certainly could not have been useful in the absence of any form of blueprints, technical drawings, or other more solid data needed to produce such an aircraft. If the Japanese acquired illustrations or pictures of the He 162 from some source and perhaps from the data obtained from the transmissions, could have produced something from it, much as they did the Ne-20 from photographs of the BMW 003 turbojet. If dimensions of the He 162 were sent, it is probable Japanese engineers could have replicated the appearance of the He 162 and either equipped it with the later Ne-330 engine or the Maru pulsejets. Certainly the He 162 lent itself to the use of non-war critical materials in its construction and was relatively simple to assemble and build, all things the Japanese were capable of doing. As it was, with the situation the Japanese air industry found itself in by this time, the task of producing a new aircraft from such sketchy data would have taken more effort than could be spared.
(this proves Japan could make equipment out of blueprints even photographs!)
I have no clue how Germany could have sent all this material!!!! 8O 8O
Note that some of these aircraft were given to Japan before the war, like the Do 16 (Do-J).

However, Japan gave Germany....
During World War II the Japanese Navy traded a Nakajima E8N "Dave" reconnaissance seaplane (itself a multi-generational development of the (Vought O2U) to Germany, later seen in British markings on the German raider Orion, and some sources mention the probable dispatch of a Mitsubishi Ki-46 "Dinah", among other weapons.
In 1935 a German technical mission arrived in Japan to sign accords and licenses to use the technology from the Akagi-class carrier for use in the German aircraft carriers Graf Zeppelin and Flugzeugträger B (both later cancelled) from Deutsche Werke Kiel A.G.

They also acquired the technical data on the adaptations to the Messerschmitt Me 109T/E and Junkers Ju 87C/E, for use on such carriers. This technology was also applied in the following aircraft:

Fieseler Fi 156
Fieseler Fi 167
Arado Ar 95/195
Arado Ar 96B
Arado Ar 197
Heinkel He 50
Avia B 534. IV
Last edited by Luftflotte2 on 23 Sep 2010 21:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Luftflotte2 » 23 Sep 2010 21:36

Orion replaced her Arado aircraft with this Nakajima 90-11 equipped with centre floats. Powered by a Jupiter nine -cylinder radial engine? The E8N2 had a top speed of of 132 mph and could land at 50 mph. Its endurance was over six hours. This Nakajima aircraft is also known as the E8N2 Type 90 'Dave'

Below that is a Japanese submarine with a Flak gun. (This is labeled as France 1943 if that is possible).
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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Helmut0815 » 24 Sep 2010 16:47

Luftflotte2 wrote:I think Germany was frustrated when Japan had little or nothing to give in return for German Technology.
In his book "Verdammter Atlantik" german author Hans Herlin mentioned U-532 which came back from Japan in spring 45 with a cargo of raw materials such as natural rubber, tungsten, tin and quinine. U-532 surrendered at sea on 10 May 1945 near Faroe Islands and was sunk later in operation "Deadlight".

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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Luftflotte2 » 25 Sep 2010 03:30

So perhaps Japan did give what the could in return. Even raw materials which were in definate short supply in Japan.

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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Luftflotte2 » 04 Dec 2010 18:40

from some Japanese website on colorized photos.
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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Luftflotte2 » 05 Dec 2010 05:50

Anon mouse wrote: "PzKw V (Panther): There is evidence that the Panther tank (or a close copy) was being made in Japan, although there is no indication of Japanese purchase of appropriate manufacturing rights or drawings.
Anon Mouse
A tank similar to the Panther!??! Anyone care to share what evidence lead them to suggest that they were making a copy of the Panther!

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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Takao » 05 Dec 2010 13:00

They are probably referring to the Type 4 Chi-To and/or the Type 5 Chi-Ri.

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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Luftflotte2 » 05 Dec 2010 16:26

Takao wrote:They are probably referring to the Type 4 Chi-To and/or the Type 5 Chi-Ri.
:| Um......The main feature to the Panther was its sloping armour, the Chi-Ri or the Chi-To do not have this. Both of these tanks don't seem to have any significant departure from their other late-war designs. The only similarity between these 3 vehicles is their size. Even the inner-workings probably aren't that similar.
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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Takao » 05 Dec 2010 16:46

Your photo of the Chi-to somewhat proves my point. When viewed from the front, the turret looks very similar to the Panther 'schmalturm.'
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4513 ... rm3qe4.jpg

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Re: Tiger tank for Japan?

Post by Luftflotte2 » 05 Dec 2010 19:06

I see what your getting at. Only slight similarities though.

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