Messerschmitts in Papua New Guinea

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
stogie
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Messerschmitts in Papua New Guinea

Post by stogie » 07 Feb 2005 13:13

Autobiographies by Australian Soldiers are either out of Print thus Impossible to find or are just Now being Wriiten ."Stoker" is one that came out in the Last few years
My main Point is that ,I remember Reading an account of Battalion History where Australian Troops encountered 2 Messerschmitts (Variant Unknown)
in Papua New Guinea and as they where Facing Imperial Japanese Troops ,They had Collected more than there fair Share of Light,Medium and Heavy Machine Guns.
If I can remember Correctly,They where moving Down a Valley when the Call Came that ,Forward Elements had been Strafed by Messerschmitts,There was a Bit of disbelief at this,
But these Troops had fought in North Africa
The Aeroplanes continued Down the Valley when they where Confirmed as Messerschmitts and Trying to Strafe the main element where shot Down into some of the most Inhospitable Jungle Ranges on Earth.
Again if I remember Correctly No attempt was made to Recover or Id the Messerschmitts, As the Australians had to keep the Japaneses on the BackFoot in that Particular Campaign and Never came back and in all probarbility could not be found ,Even if they could spare the Men
My Questions are
A) Has anybody else heard of this
B) Did the Imperial Japanese Airforce,Navy etc ever have Messerschmitts in some sought of Cross Fertilization of Axis Fighter's
C) Would it have been Possible for the German's to Deliver the Messerschmitts to the Japanese at this Time (1943 !?!)
D) Why would they for all intents and purpose's ,Do this as I would have thought the Cost to the German's to be to great

Tapani K.
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Post by Tapani K. » 07 Feb 2005 13:45

I think it is most likely a misidentification. Probably a KI-61. Take look at e.g. this site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/K61.htm

regards,
Tapani K.

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 07 Feb 2005 14:43

Stogie -

As Tapani K. noted, these were Kawasaki Ki-61 Army Type 3 Fighters (Hien or TONY). The JAAF had several fighter Hiko Sentai (flying regiments) stationed at Wewak and other airfields in northern New Guinea under 4th Air Army that were equipped with this type during 1943 and early 1944. They look so much like the Bf 109 that they were constantly being misidentified as such.

--Larry

stogie
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Similarity ,But

Post by stogie » 07 Feb 2005 20:24

There is a Close Similarity ,Between the Two Types,
But they Never mentioned being Straffed By bf 109's again in the Campaign and having fought in the Western Desert ,They would have had close up I.D's of the bf109's
Perhaps the forward Elements Reporting Messerschmitts 109's in the Heat of getting shot at.
That is what the Main Element Expected to See,As they where (I believe) Never Recovered,Reported as Such.Thus becoming part of Battalion History
Thanks for the Help in clearing it up

varjag
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Re: Similarity ,But

Post by varjag » 08 Feb 2005 14:13

stogie wrote:There is a Close Similarity ,Between the Two Types,
But they Never mentioned being Straffed By bf 109's again in the Campaign and having fought in the Western Desert ,They would have had close up I.D's of the bf109's
Perhaps the forward Elements Reporting Messerschmitts 109's in the Heat of getting shot at.
That is what the Main Element Expected to See,As they where (I believe) Never Recovered,Reported as Such.Thus becoming part of Battalion History
Thanks for the Help in clearing it up
As the Kawasaki Ki-61 'Hien' was the only single-in-line-engined aircraft they could possible have sighted - they were mistaken. But there were allied pilots too who sighted the 'Hiens' and duly reported back that 'now the Japs have Messerschmitts too'.

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Ome_Joop
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Post by Ome_Joop » 09 Feb 2005 02:32

Probably Tony's/Hien's but there was a possibility that they were Bf-109E's!!
Japanes recieved a few(5) Bf-109E's for evaluation!

source:
http://www.pluth.net/captured/testedby/me109/me109.htm
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avbf1093.html#m2

Japan also recieved one FW-190A5....so it was possible to encounter a 190 as well!!:)

source:
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/foreign.htm
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avfw190.html#m5

varjag
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Post by varjag » 09 Feb 2005 11:50

Let's stick to your 'probably Hien's' Ome_Joop and not dwell into the 'highly unlikely'. But I appreciate your knowledge - I didn t know that the Japs got their hands on a Fw 190....rgds, Varjag

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Post by Larry D. » 09 Feb 2005 13:45

Gentlemen -

I absolutely and unequivocably guarrantee that there were no Messerschmitt Bf 109s in New Guinea. For those out there who have become helplessly intoxicated by internet cyber-fantasies and insist on dwelling over such fictions, please go to the j-aircraft dot com website and do a search under "Messerschmitt" or "Bf 109", or "Focke-Wulf" or "Junkers", etc., etc. You will find more entries than you can read in an 8-hour day, all relating to the Japanese procurement and testing of German-made aircraft, weapons and other hardware both pre-war and during the war. I don't mean to sound harsh or belittling, but it's best to squash these "urban myths" wherever encountered, otherwise they keep perpetuating themselves endlessly and people start believing them.

--Larry

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Bodul
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Post by Bodul » 09 Feb 2005 14:04

Interesting post!I learned something new today:)
Thx :D

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Ome_Joop
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Post by Ome_Joop » 09 Feb 2005 23:05

Larry D. wrote:Gentlemen -

I absolutely and unequivocably guarrantee that there were no Messerschmitt Bf 109s in New Guinea. For those out there who have become helplessly intoxicated by internet cyber-fantasies and insist on dwelling over such fictions, please go to the j-aircraft dot com website and do a search under "Messerschmitt" or "Bf 109", or "Focke-Wulf" or "Junkers", etc., etc. You will find more entries than you can read in an 8-hour day, all relating to the Japanese procurement and testing of German-made aircraft, weapons and other hardware both pre-war and during the war. I don't mean to sound harsh or belittling, but it's best to squash these "urban myths" wherever encountered, otherwise they keep perpetuating themselves endlessly and people start believing them.

--Larry
I know I got a bit carried away when i tried to answer the B & C part of this question....and you are right about that New Guinea part as i think these Bf-109's and the single FW-190 were tested at Tama Army AB, the primary Japanese flight test center during World War II....

But i want to say one thing about this: You cannot unequivocably guarrantee anything that is really BS as in war everything is possible, you cannot know things/facts for sure as you were not there (these Aussies were there and even they didn't know for sure...they really tought they saw 109's) and without propper proof you can almost suggest anything to be true (although of coarse i still think these aircraft were Ki-61 Hien's)

BTW Here is the list of Foreign Aircraft in Japanese Service from J-Aircraft:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/misc/foreign.htm
Last edited by Ome_Joop on 10 Feb 2005 00:07, edited 3 times in total.

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 09 Feb 2005 23:34

Ome_Joop -

"But i want to say one thing about this: You cannot unequivocably guarrantee anything as in war everything is possible and without propper proof you can almost suggest anything to be true (although ofcoarse i still think these aircraft were Ki-61 Hien's)"

Yes, you are right. Usually, perhaps even 99% of the time, it is wise not to guarantee anything in war. But this case is different. Most of the records of 4 Kōkūgun (4th Air Army) survived the war and were used to produce several exquisitely detailed manuscript studies of the Japanese air war in New Guinea. These were written by JAAF senior staff officers immediately after the war and translated by ATIS in Tokyo. I've read and studied them. Also, aviation enthusiasts in postwar Japan have investigated and written numerous articles about each and every foreign-made aircraft that came into Japanese possession in the 'thirties and 'forties. There are specialists on that j-aircraft dot com website who read Japanese - some of whom are bilingual Japanese - and have all of these Japanese language articles. I have faith that they know what they are talking about because they have proven their credibility over and over again when it comes to this subject, which has been hashed over on that website many times during the past 5 years. So, to make a long story short and bring this discussion to a conclusion, I feel 100% confident in guaranteeing that there were no Messerschmitt Bf 109s in New Guinea at the time of the Second World War. At age 67, I can assure you that I would never make an irresponsible boastful assertion without being certain of what I was saying.

Regards,

--Larry

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Ome_Joop
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Post by Ome_Joop » 10 Feb 2005 00:10

Larry OK you convinced me (wasn't that hard as it seems very very very unlikly that there were 109's in the first place...see Tama army AB part)! 8)

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 11 Feb 2005 17:49

I remember writing a post about British/Dutch or Australian claims that they had shot down 2 Me109's during the Japanese invasion of Malaya in December'41.

Every enemy plane is a Me109 is akin to every German tank being a Tiger

Andy H

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Tim Smith
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Post by Tim Smith » 12 Feb 2005 02:34

Relying on the aircraft identification skill of ground troops is utter folly. Ground troops in WWII were very liable to shoot down planes from their own side, so if these Australians can't tell the difference between a Hurricane and a Bf 109, then they definitely can't tell the difference between a Bf 109 and a Ki-61.

stogie
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Pardon!!!

Post by stogie » 12 Feb 2005 11:06

How did the Hurricane get in to this

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