Japan, China and the Manchus

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
Damas
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 Feb 2005 17:29
Location: Attica

Japan, China and the Manchus

Post by Damas » 07 Feb 2005 04:18

[Split by the moderator from the thread "Chinese Nationalist Atrocities in 1911" in the H&WC section -- DT]

Hi there,
what an interesting discussion on some aspects of Chinese history totally unknown to most of the rest of the world! Thank you for your contributions. :D
I have three questions for you guys to see how you perceive things from your different points of view:

1. I read recently in a book ("China & Russia - The Great Game" by E. Clubb, Columbia University Press) that Dr. Sun Yat-sen in an interview to a Japanese magazine (China Weekly Review, Dec.16, 1922) said:

"In joining in the World War on the side of the Allied Powers, Japan failed to utilize the golden opportunity to making Asia exclusive for the Asiatics. Such an Asia would have opposed the Whites, especially the Anglo-Saxons. As Japan has shown herself incapable of seizing this opportunity, it will be China that will be called upon to make Asia a place for Asiatics in the future. If Japan really wishes to see Asia controlled by the Asiatics, she must promote relations with the Russians. Russians are Asiatics...Japan must make common cause with the Russians in opposing the aggression of the Anglo-Saxon. In shaking hands with Russia in the work of asserting the rights of the Asiatics alone lies hope of salvation from the catastrophe to which Japan and the other Oriental countries are being forced by the unsatiable ambition of Anglo-Saxons."

What are your comments on this?

2. I read from the tone of both that you consider the Manchus completely separate from the other Chinese. Do you consider the area formerlly known as "Manchuria" to be separate or part of China, at least until the end of WWII?

3. What was the reaction of the Manchu population to the creation of "Manchukuo"? Was there any short of immigration of Manchus living in other parts of China to "Manchuria" or forms of support or opposition (by the Manchus) after the creation of that "state"?

My first message in these boards, not very much in connection with the subject but since I found you both here...

Thank you.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 07 Feb 2005 05:22

Damas -- Welcome to the forum.

mars
Member
Posts: 1174
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 19:50
Location: Shanghai

Post by mars » 07 Feb 2005 06:28

Damas:
1. Manchuria, or as Our chinese usually called "North-eastern" region, were a part of china for a very long time, Manchu, was those triblemen who lived in that area for more than 1000 year, they built their own country and went south to conquered the mainland china and eventually build the Qing dynamstics
2. after the fall of Qing, the Manchuria remain as part of china, first it was occupied by local warland Zhang zuo Lin, after he was murdered by Japanese, by his son Zhang xue liang who declared loyal to central government of Republic of china
3. from 1931-45, Japanese invaded and occupied the Manchuria region and built the puppet Manchu kuo
4. the Manchu population were chinarize for hundred years, most of the Manchu people could not even speak their ancient language, and the live habit, culture and religion were no difference than those Han chinese people. After the fall of Qing, there were NO discrimiantion against Manchu, and except some die hard Manchu royalist (by the way, I have to point out, most of those royalist were actually Han chinese), majority of Manchu people did not support Japanese.

Damas
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 Feb 2005 17:29
Location: Attica

"Manchuria"

Post by Damas » 07 Feb 2005 13:56

Thank you Mars for the reply. I already know the "official" version of the history of "Manchuria".

You say:

"1. Manchuria, or as Our chinese usually called "North-eastern" region, were a part of china for a very long time, Manchu, was those triblemen who lived in that area for more than 1000 year, they built their own country and went south to conquered the mainland china and eventually build the Qing dynamstics."

Could you please remind me during which Han Chinese dynasties was "Manchuria" "a part of china", politically, administratively and military? Because from what I know, since around 900A.D. the area was under the control of the Kitans, then under the control of the Mongols (both China and "Manchuria") and then the Manchus. Between the Mongols and the Manchus the Mings built the Great Wall to separate and protect the Chinese Empire from the Northern barbarians, namely the Mongols and the Manchus.
As I see it, during the Manchu dynasty, China became part of "Manchuria", not the opposite.

Check: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchuria

Of course, now, the area is part of China, no question about it.

To the moderator: I'm sorry for using this board to talk about this subject. Didn't know where else to start talking about it.

mars
Member
Posts: 1174
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 19:50
Location: Shanghai

Post by mars » 07 Feb 2005 16:02

Damas, the Manchuria was under controlled by Ming dynastic in all manner, politically, administratively and military,until the rising of Manchu, the Great wall was an defense system to protect china from Northern nomadic tribleman, in Ming dymastic, the government rebuilt part of Great wall to against Mongol in the North, not Manchu in the North-east, because Manchu had not caused any concerned at that time.

Damas
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 Feb 2005 17:29
Location: Attica

Post by Damas » 07 Feb 2005 16:55

Mars,
I disagree but thank you for your oppinion. :)

User avatar
Boljonggo
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 02:58
Location: Pekin

Post by Boljonggo » 16 Feb 2005 01:36

mars wrote:After the fall of Qing, there were NO discrimiantion against Manchu.
This is not the truth. The discrimination against the Manchus during the Nationalist rule is very severe and repressive. This is a known fact and even the current Chinese government does not deny it. As a Han Chinese you might not be able to feel it or perhaps even appreciate it. If you really want to be fair, you can try to find some works which touch this topic. For example you can try to find and read Professor Ding Yizhuang's recent book "The Last Memory - the Oral History from Sixteen Bannerwomen" Beijing, 1999 (定宜莊《最後的記憶-十六位旗人婦女的口述歷史》,中國廣播電視出版社(北京),一九九九年八月第一版).

Another good example is that the famous writer Lao She, who dared not to admit that he was a Manchu for fear of persecution during the Nationalist rule. See "My Father Lao She" by his son Shu Yi, Shenyang, 2004, p140, (舒乙《我的父親老舍》,父輩叢書,文化名人系列[圖文版],遼寧人民出版社(瀋陽),二○○四年二月第一版).

More than one of my family members lost their jobs during the nationalist rule, especially during the first ten years of the rule simply because no Han Chinese wanted to hire a Manchu, to you Han Chinese that might be simply a personal choice, but to our Manchu that collective attitude amounts to discrimination - by whatever standard!

Have a nice day!

Sain Boljonggo

User avatar
Boljonggo
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 02:58
Location: Pekin

Post by Boljonggo » 16 Feb 2005 01:56

mars wrote: majority of Manchu people did not support Japanese.
That is because they realized that the Manchouko was not a real Manchu country, but a Japanese puppet state. My grandfather is one of the opponent to the Manchouko and had to flee the area. Another famous and powerful Bannerman, Lingsheng, who was instrumental in pursuing Puyi to accept the Presidency of the Manchouko and was a provincial governor there, was so disappointed that Manchouko was not a real Manchu state that he turned to organize some resistance to the Japanese and was arrested and executed together with his family.

And the first Chinese general who was killed in action fighting the Japanese, General Tong Linge, is a Manchu Bannerman. See Zhao Shu, "General Tong Linge is a Manchu", in Beijing Wangbao, May 8, 1995, (趙書, 佟麟閣將軍是滿族人, 北京晚報, 1995年5月8日)

Have a nice day!

Sain Boljonggo

User avatar
Boljonggo
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 02:58
Location: Pekin

Post by Boljonggo » 16 Feb 2005 02:23

mars wrote: the Manchu population were chinarize for hundred years.
Another misstatement of truth! I believe it is not intentional on your part, but from your biased Chinese Chauvinist view against all the minorities (not necessarily ethnic, but also religious and racial). The Manchus only stopped speaking Manchu amongst themselves during mid-Guangxu period (about 1880) in China proper, see Professor Ding Yizhuang, "Study on Eight Banner Garrison", Shenyang, 2003, (定宜莊《清代八旗駐防研究》,遼寧民族出版社(瀋陽),二○○三年七月第一版); in Manchuria, this happened only after 1949, and quite a number of Manchus still speak it.

And if we are really thoroughly assimilated as you claim, why you are still caiming that "the bannermen are problematic" (旗人麻煩多),or like some one would say it more politely: "the bannermen have too many rules and taboos" (旗人禮兒多,旗人規矩多),then why you people always say "don't marry your daught to a stinky Tartar" (有女不嫁騷韃子).

Exactly how much do you know about we Manchus? Next time can you please kindly source your wild and sweeping claims?

Have a nice day!

Sain Boljonggo

mars
Member
Posts: 1174
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 19:50
Location: Shanghai

Post by mars » 16 Feb 2005 05:18

Boljonggo, the sad thing for you is how much do the current Manchus people know about the Manchus, for example, how many Manchu could speak the the Manchu language in 19 century ? from this time on, I have nothing more to say to you

Damas
Member
Posts: 52
Joined: 06 Feb 2005 17:29
Location: Attica

Post by Damas » 16 Feb 2005 08:18

Boljonggo:

"Baniha" for your message, even if you don't reply to me directly. I'm studying the history of "Manchuria" and "Manchukuo" for some years (also trying to learn Manchu by myself...) and I was wondering if you could help me.

Anyway, here's an interesting passage from the book "Wild Swans" by Jung Chang.
Her grandfather was a Manchu and he wanted to marry a Han chinese. The rest of his family didn't agree and:

"They begged Dr Xia to consider the fact that he was a Manchu, and that according to ancient Manchu custom a man of his status should not marry a Han Chinese. Dr Xia replied that the rule had been abolished a long time before. His children said that if he was a good Manchu, he should observe it anyway."

So was there a rule that forbade Manchus to marry Han Chinese and if it was abolished, when was that?

User avatar
Allen Milcic
Member
Posts: 2903
Joined: 09 Sep 2003 20:29
Location: Canada

Post by Allen Milcic » 16 Feb 2005 16:26

Boljonggo:

You may disagree with other Forum members all you want, but please keep the personal commentary and sweeping national insults out of the threads. I will edit for content any further postings that include phrases like "you people" or "Chinese Chauvinist" (when addressed at an individual). Thank you.

Allen/

mars
Member
Posts: 1174
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 19:50
Location: Shanghai

Post by mars » 16 Feb 2005 17:54

Damas, when Manchu come south and conquered the china, because they were a minority, the manchu emporor and nobles afraided they would losst their idendity among the massive Han Chinese people, "like salt disovled in the water", so they issued a law forbiden the marriage between Han Chinese and Manchu which lasted the whole Qing dynamstic, even when most of Manchu people could no long speak and write their native language, this law was still prevail. Of course after the fall of the Qing, this law was abolished, and the marriage between Han and Manchu were legal, in some old "traditional" family, may be those marriage is still being frown upon, but as I know, many Han and Manchu people marry each other with no problem.

User avatar
Formosan_Hsiao
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: 03 Feb 2005 13:04
Location: Hsin-chu, Taiwan, Republic of China

Post by Formosan_Hsiao » 16 Feb 2005 20:03

Boljonggo wrote:
And if we are really thoroughly assimilated as you claim, why you are still caiming that "the bannermen are problematic" (旗人麻煩多),or like some one would say it more politely: "the bannermen have too many rules and taboos" (旗人禮兒多,旗人規矩多),then why you people always say "don't marry your daught to a stinky Tartar" (有女不嫁騷韃子).
Firstly,
Very interesting! In order to confirm your suggestion, you, unexpectedly, fabricate those Chinese proverbs, which do not exist in fact.
1. No searching result for "旗人麻煩多" (the bannermen are problematic):Click Here!
2. No searching result for "旗人禮兒多" (the bannermen have too many rules and taboos):Click Here!
3. No searching result for "旗人規矩多" (the bannermen have too many rules and taboos):Click Here!
4. No searching result for "有女不嫁騷韃子" (don't marry your daught to a stinky Tartar):Click Here
What I wondered most is why you ALWAYS lie? This is not the first time you tell lies and uglify the Han Chinese people on this forum. (Click Here!) Why should you be like this, Dear Mr. Boljonggo? Do you want to mislead the westerners who don't know Chinese?

Secondly,
In Ch’ing Dynasty, the Manchus had privilege. They lived on the labor of others. Without servants, they were unable to take care of themselves. After the 1911 Revolution, the Manchus lost their privilege. Those former nobles had to support themselves and their families by their own work. In that period, they had some difficulties, endured some sufferings. So, you say, the Han Chinese made "ethnic discrimination". This is your logic, is it right? What you say is just like the complaint of a descendant of the down and out noble. I don’t think you should hold this kind of attitude in the academic discussion on this forum.
You may disagree with others, but you should be honest and fair at least.

User avatar
Formosan_Hsiao
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: 03 Feb 2005 13:04
Location: Hsin-chu, Taiwan, Republic of China

Re: Japan, China and the Manchus

Post by Formosan_Hsiao » 16 Feb 2005 21:33

Damas wrote:[Split by the moderator from the thread "Chinese Nationalist Atrocities in 1911" in the H&WC section -- DT]

Hi there,
what an interesting discussion on some aspects of Chinese history totally unknown to most of the rest of the world! Thank you for your contributions. :D
I have three questions for you guys to see how you perceive things from your different points of view:

1. I read recently in a book ("China & Russia - The Great Game" by E. Clubb, Columbia University Press) that Dr. Sun Yat-sen in an interview to a Japanese magazine (China Weekly Review, Dec.16, 1922) said:

"In joining in the World War on the side of the Allied Powers, Japan failed to utilize the golden opportunity to making Asia exclusive for the Asiatics. Such an Asia would have opposed the Whites, especially the Anglo-Saxons. As Japan has shown herself incapable of seizing this opportunity, it will be China that will be called upon to make Asia a place for Asiatics in the future. If Japan really wishes to see Asia controlled by the Asiatics, she must promote relations with the Russians. Russians are Asiatics...Japan must make common cause with the Russians in opposing the aggression of the Anglo-Saxon. In shaking hands with Russia in the work of asserting the rights of the Asiatics alone lies hope of salvation from the catastrophe to which Japan and the other Oriental countries are being forced by the unsatiable ambition of Anglo-Saxons."

What are your comments on this?

2. I read from the tone of both that you consider the Manchus completely separate from the other Chinese. Do you consider the area formerlly known as "Manchuria" to be separate or part of China, at least until the end of WWII?

3. What was the reaction of the Manchu population to the creation of "Manchukuo"? Was there any short of immigration of Manchus living in other parts of China to "Manchuria" or forms of support or opposition (by the Manchus) after the creation of that "state"?

My first message in these boards, not very much in connection with the subject but since I found you both here...

Thank you.
Hi Damas,
1. After the failure in diplomacy of China at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919, most Chinese generally distrust westerners. So did Dr. Sun Yat-sen. In his old age, he believed that Soviet Russia was a real reliable friend of oppressed nations. At that time, Lenin was still alive, he showed good will to China, and gave much military aid to the National Revolutionary Army of China.
2. The government of Republic of China never recognize Manchuria as an "independent state". The Chinese people regarded Manchuria as the enemy-occupied area during 1931-1945.
3. There was emigration of ordinary Han Chinese during the Japanese occupation of Manchuria. And some former Manchu nobles and Puyi's followers immigrated to Manchuria from inside Shanhaiguan. I don't think there was ordinary Manchu people who immigrated to the Manchuria, because common people couldn't get some advantages there. And the number of the emigrants then was far larger than that of the immigrants.

Return to “Japan at War 1895-1945”