German Armament Production

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
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Guaporense
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Re: German Armament Production

Post by Guaporense » 19 Sep 2010 22:43

nebelwerferXXX wrote:Summary of total Allied forces 1940 to 1945:
Tanks...210,950
Merchant shipping...44,431,300 tons
Warships...10,853,200 tons
Warplanes...582,500
Total Manpower...109,750,100

Summary of total Axis forces 1940 to 1945:
Tanks...50,400
Merchant shipping...3,792,000 tons
Warships...2,244,200 tons
Warplanes...174,200
Total manpower...61,160,400
Some errors here:

The figure for warplanes for the Allies is wrong. The Allies produced ca 400.000 combat aircraft during WW2 (the US made 190.000, USSR, 120.0000 and UK, 90.000). The allied figure is actually the Axis + Allied production.

The Axis figure probably includes production from Hungary, Italy and other minor producers as well, since German + Japanese production was ca 150.000.

The figures for warships are also strange, since the US produced 3.560.000 tons of combat naval vessels. However, you must be including the production of all categories of naval vessels, with bring the total output to 8.243.000 tons. Source: Wartime Production Achievements, p. 107.

The manpower figures are in terms of men years, or the sum of the numbers of the personnel employed by the armed forces for a given year. The Allies certainly mobilized more than 1,6 times the manpower than the Axis. The USSR alone mobilized 35 million men.

The only manpower comparison that I know of is from this site: (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/axis.htm), with gives the following comparison: Image

However, the only country with correct figures is the USSR. Germany actually mobilized 17,9 million men, the US mobilized 16,2 million, UK mobilized 9 million. But the proportions are quite right.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by Guaporense » 19 Sep 2010 23:44

A comparison of German and American combat munitions production:

Data:
Germany from January 1940 to December 1944 (60 months).
US from July 1940 to July 1945 (61 months).

-------------------------------- Germany ------- US
Combat aircraft ------------- 82.500 -------- 195.460
---- Fighters ----------------- 52.600 --------- 98.700
---- Bombers ----------------- 29.900 --------- 96.760

Ammunition and bombs (metric tons) ---- Germany ------ US
------------------------------------------------- 9.833.000 ----- 11 - 12 million tons
--- Ammunition ------------------------------ 8.583.000 ----- Ground artillery --- 3.850.780
------------------------------------------------------------------- Naval ammunition --- 1.221.120
------------------------------------------------------------------- Small arms 41 billion rounds (weight? I guess: 1-2 million tons)
------------------------------------------------------------------- Total: 6 -7 million tons
--- Bombs ------------------------------------- 1.250.000 ----- 5.281.000

AFVs ------------------------ Germany ------ US
------------------------------- 67.429 ------- 88.410
With guns >= 75 mm ------ 43.920 ------- 71.067

Sources:
US, Wartime Production Achievements, page 105 to 109
AFVs: Wikipedia page on Military production in World War Two (link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_p ... rld_War_II)
Germany,
Ammunition: "The Penguin Historical Atlas of the Third Reich" by Richard Overy
AFVs: Wikipedia page on Military production in World War Two (link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_p ... rld_War_II)
Aircraft: "The German War Economy" by Nicolas Kaldor, pages 45 and 46, of the Review of Economic Studies, Vol. 13, Number 1.

The US outproduced Germany in all categories of combat related munitions except submarines (Germany made 6 times more submarines than the US), torpedoes, heavy ground artillery pieces and ground ammunition. Overall, American production was twice of the German production.

The number of machine tools that Germany had during the war was greater than the American supply, but the Americans worked their machine stock harder than the Germans. Overall, the German was industry worked on a single shift, while the American industry worked on two shifts. So equal numbers of machine tools producing twice the quantities of munitions in the US as compared to Germany.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by LWD » 20 Sep 2010 13:07

Guaporense wrote:... The US outproduced Germany in all categories of combat related munitions except submarines (Germany made 6 times more submarines than the US), torpedoes, heavy ground artillery pieces and ground ammunition. Overall, American production was twice of the German production.....
Looking at: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_Notes.htm and http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTGER_Notes.htm it's not clear to me that Germany did produce more torpedoes than the US. Do you have a source with better numbers?
It would also be interesting to have for your "heavy ground artillery pieces" along with your definition of the same. The same for "ground ammunition" in many cases ammo could be used in multiple aplciations how did you seperate this out?

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by LWD » 20 Sep 2010 13:13

Guaporense wrote:.. The number of machine tools that Germany had during the war was greater than the American supply, but the Americans worked their machine stock harder than the Germans. Overall, the German was industry worked on a single shift, while the American industry worked on two shifts. So equal numbers of machine tools producing twice the quantities of munitions in the US as compared to Germany.
Where did you get information on the number of machine tools available? Wouldn't worker productivity also impact this? As for machine tool productivity you'd have to have good information on the acutal usage. It's not clear to me that the "US worked 2 shifts" generality you mention is all that accurate when applied to machine tools. From what I've read some sectors of the economy worked 3 shifts through most of the war. Other may only have worked one. The distribution of machine tools across these business wouldn't necessarily have been uniform.

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by RichTO90 » 20 Sep 2010 14:57

Guaporense wrote:Data:
Germany from January 1940 to December 1944 (60 months).
US from July 1940 to July 1945 (61 months).

-------------------------------- Germany ------- US
Combat aircraft ------------- 82.500 -------- 195.460
---- Fighters ----------------- 52.600 --------- 98.700
---- Bombers ----------------- 29.900 --------- 96.760
Peculiar figures as always. Note that the German figures from January 1940-December 1944 encapsulate the peak period of their production...but excludes three months of early wartime and all peacetime production. OTOH, the US figures also include the peak...but also 17 months of peacetime production, albeit that was a period of mobilization under the emergency declared in September 1939. I'll return to this in a later post.

However, the German figures seem odd in and of themselves. The totals I find from the USSBS for the period are:

4E Bomber 1,356
2E Bomber 23,830
1E Bomber 4,757
Bombers Total 29,943
2E Fighter 7,955
1E Fighter 41,558
Fighter Total 49,513

Grand Total 79,456

I am curious where the extra 3,000-odd come from?
The US outproduced Germany in all categories of combat related munitions except submarines (Germany made 6 times more submarines than the US), torpedoes, heavy ground artillery pieces and ground ammunition. Overall, American production was twice of the German production.
I was unaware that 1,108 (including those completed prior to 1 September 1939) was six times 217? I make it about 5.1? Torpedoes is nominally correct, but perhaps a better measure is that the Germans produced roughly 60 torpedoes per sub, while the Americans managed about 244...indicating that one had a substantially longer lifetime and combat survivability than the other?

I am also curious as to what constitutes "heavy ground artillery pieces"? For guns and howitzers 17cm and larger the number is roughly 1,100 German versus 1,400 US. Perhaps the meaning of that obscurationist sentence could be clarified? Ditto "ground ammunition"?
Richard Anderson
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Stackpole Books, 2009.

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by RichTO90 » 20 Sep 2010 18:27

RichTO90 wrote:Peculiar figures as always. Note that the German figures from January 1940-December 1944 encapsulate the peak period of their production...but excludes three months of early wartime and all peacetime production. OTOH, the US figures also include the peak...but also 17 months of peacetime production, albeit that was a period of mobilization under the emergency declared in September 1939. I'll return to this in a later post.
Okay, here we go. US production September 1940 to August 1945 (60 months):

4E Heavy Bomber and Patrol Bomber (Navy) 35,618
2E Medium Bomber and Patrol Bomber 22,041
2E Light Bomber 13,489
1E Light Bomber 26,380
2E Fighter 10,588
1E Fighter 89,030

Grand Total 197,146 (97,528 bombers and 99,618 fighters)

Gee, isn't it interesting that if you match time periods more contiguously the numbers change? We have the same number of months now, but even with one less month of production the US now has produced 768 more bombers and 918 more fighters... :roll:

So let's see what the German to US comparison really was...
4E Bomber 1,356
The US produced more than 26 times the German total...
2E Bomber 23,830
The US produced nearly 1.5 times the German total...
1E Bomber 4,757
The US produced more than 5.5 times the German total...
2E Fighter 7,955
The US produced more than 1.3 times the German total...
1E Fighter 41,558
The US produced nearly 2.4 times the German total...
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Re: German Armament Production

Post by bf109 emil » 23 Sep 2010 07:18

The figures for warships are also strange, since the US produced 3.560.000 tons of combat naval vessels. However, you must be including the production of all categories of naval vessels, with bring the total output to 8.243.000 tons. Source: Wartime Production Achievements, p. 107.
hey lets not forget Canada which at the end of WW2 had the 3rd largest navy behind the USA and Great Britain 8O
Looking at: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_Notes.htm and http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTGER_Notes.htm it's not clear to me that Germany did produce more torpedoes than the US. Do you have a source with better numbers?
Yes i would like this also as the USA, Japan and Britain used large numbers of torpedoes on surface vessels...IMHO numerous more then did ever Germany.

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by Guaporense » 30 Sep 2010 23:07

LWD wrote:
Guaporense wrote:.. The number of machine tools that Germany had during the war was greater than the American supply, but the Americans worked their machine stock harder than the Germans. Overall, the German was industry worked on a single shift, while the American industry worked on two shifts. So equal numbers of machine tools producing twice the quantities of munitions in the US as compared to Germany.
Where did you get information on the number of machine tools available? Wouldn't worker productivity also impact this? As for machine tool productivity you'd have to have good information on the acutal usage. It's not clear to me that the "US worked 2 shifts" generality you mention is all that accurate when applied to machine tools. From what I've read some sectors of the economy worked 3 shifts through most of the war. Other may only have worked one. The distribution of machine tools across these business wouldn't necessarily have been uniform.
The number of machine tools is provided by this source: http://wwiiarchives.net/servlet/document/149/240/0

In 1942 for example, Germany had 1,427,800 machine tools, while the US had 1,246,500 machine tools. The comparison was made including only the same types and categories of machine tools.

They also compared Germany to the UK, including a larger set of types of machine tools, Germany had 2,150,000 machines, Britain had only 740,000. Source: http://wwiiarchives.net/servlet/document/149/53/0

Compared to the USSR, I don't have data on Soviet machine tool stocks, but their production during the course of the entire war was only 115,400 units (source: http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/SovLendLease.html) while Germany produced nearly 200,000 machine tools per year, production for the entire war was about 1 million, or 9 times the Soviet figure. Source: http://wwiiarchives.net/servlet/document/149/234/0

So, Germany had more machine tools than the US, UK and every other country in the world. So, why their production was lower in proportion? The main reason was that they used their machine tool stock much less intensively. In Germany in 1942, in the middle of the war, 90% of the industrial labor force worked on the first shift, 7% on the second shift and 3% on the third (source: http://wwiiarchives.net/servlet/document/149/52/0).

In the US, UK and the USSR each machine was worked a longer number of hours per day than in Germany. As result they got superior production per unit of machine tool.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by Guaporense » 30 Sep 2010 23:18

RichTO90 wrote:I am also curious as to what constitutes "heavy ground artillery pieces"? For guns and howitzers 17cm and larger the number is roughly 1,100 German versus 1,400 US. Perhaps the meaning of that obscurationist sentence could be clarified? Ditto "ground ammunition"?
I don't have exact data on the number of guns over 75mm that the US produced, but Germany produced 60,000 in 1944. The US apparently didn't produce such number of guns in 1944, but I don't have an exact number. Also, considering that you gave the extreme number of 17 centimeter calibre artillery, may you provide it?
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by Guaporense » 30 Sep 2010 23:40

LWD[quote] wrote:
Guaporense wrote:... The US outproduced Germany in all categories of combat related munitions except submarines (Germany made 6 times more submarines than the US), torpedoes, heavy ground artillery pieces and ground ammunition. Overall, American production was twice of the German production.....
Looking at: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_Notes.htm and http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTGER_Notes.htm it's not clear to me that Germany did produce more torpedoes than the US. Do you have a source with better numbers?
It would also be interesting to have for your "heavy ground artillery pieces" along with your definition of the same. The same for "ground ammunition" in many cases ammo could be used in multiple aplciations how did you seperate this out?
1- The number of torpedoes produced by the US were:

1942 - 4,524
1943 - 15,599
1944 - 24,015

source: W.P.A. 109

For Germany:

1941 - 14,200
1942 - 11,000
1943 - 11,600
1944 - 15,800

source: Kaldor, N., The German War Economy, 1946, The Review of Economic Studies. In 1943 and 1944 the US produced more, but Germany produced slighly more torpedoes for the entire war.

2- The ground artillery ammunition category was given by the Wartime Production Achievements page 108. I don't know how they separate ground from sea ammunition. I would like a simple big picture number like: munitions, tons, so I could directly compare to Germany's ~10 million ton number (I estimated that US production of "exploding" munitions (bombs, ammo) was between 11 and 12 million tons).
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by JonS » 01 Oct 2010 00:29

Guaporense wrote:
LWD[quote] wrote:
Guaporense wrote:... The US outproduced Germany in all categories of combat related munitions except submarines (Germany made 6 times more submarines than the US), torpedoes, heavy ground artillery pieces and ground ammunition. Overall, American production was twice of the German production.....
Looking at: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_Notes.htm and http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTGER_Notes.htm it's not clear to me that Germany did produce more torpedoes than the US. Do you have a source with better numbers?
1- The number of torpedoes produced by the US were:

1942 - 4,524
1943 - 15,599
1944 - 24,015

source: W.P.A. 109

For Germany:

1942 - 11,000
1943 - 11,600
1944 - 15,800

source: Kaldor, N., The German War Economy, 1946, The Review of Economic Studies. In 1943 and 1944 the US produced more, but Germany produced slighly more torpedoes for the entire war.
4524 + 15599 + 24015 = 44138
11000 + 11600 + 15800 = 38400

In the crazy education system in which I was bought up, 44138 is greater than 38400. Also, in that same crazy education system, the US war was from 1942 through to 1945. Finally, in that self same crazy education system, I was taught to be wary of convieniently rounded numbers, like those of the German production totals.

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by RichTO90 » 01 Oct 2010 01:29

Guaporense wrote:I don't have exact data on the number of guns over 75mm that the US produced, but Germany produced 60,000 in 1944. The US apparently didn't produce such number of guns in 1944, but I don't have an exact number. Also, considering that you gave the extreme number of 17 centimeter calibre artillery, may you provide it?
I see, so it's not really "heavy ground artillery" that you meant to say, but rather "any piece of artillery 75mm and larger? Rather a different breed of animal you know? The illogical endpoint of such statistical legerdemaine is the Soviet figures that show they "outproduced" the Germans in artillery...because they include everything 20mm and larger as "artillery", but choose selectively what they count as German artillery. :roll:

And I will be happy to provide it as soon as I am back to my sources. In any case, the commonly accepted definition of "heavy artillery" at the time was 15cm guns or larger and 20 cm howitzers or larger. It would help if when you make your blanket assessments if you had some small clue of what your blanket actually covered. Your ignorance of the basic terminology - as well as the basic facts - is showing again. :lol:

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by Guaporense » 01 Oct 2010 19:40

I considered extreme 17 cm because the production totals of 17 centimeter shells were quite low according to Long's site: http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/GermWeapProd.html
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by LWD » 01 Oct 2010 19:42

I.e. you chose a definiton to aid your case rather than using a standard one.

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Re: German Armament Production

Post by bf109 emil » 01 Oct 2010 22:11

Guaporense wrote:I considered extreme 17 cm because the production totals of 17 centimeter shells were quite low according to Long's site: http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/GermWeapProd.html
would production of a certain calibre or diameter of a shell require a suitable number of artillery piece required in order to justify production numbers prior?

maybe one can conclude the low production number of shells as a result of few artillery pieces available in which to fire them to begin with :idea: :idea:

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