Impact of Lend-Lease on Soviet railways

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
Michael Kenny
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Re: Impact of Lend-Lease on Soviet railways

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Sep 2008 03:11

A useful link to data on wartime Soviet Locos. It seems some were in service until quite recently.

http://www.dzherelo.com.ua/en/steam-loco-collection/

It is the first info I have seen on LL Locos

Built: AIco - 1944-47; Baldwin - 1944-45
Quantity built: 2117 (2051 delivered)

Number series: 2001-4260 (with gaps)
Purpose: Freight
Power: Yea - 1546 kWI (40 km/h; 0-6);
Tractive effort: 204 kN (20 km/h; 0-8)
Maximum speed: 80 km/h
Grate area: 6-0 m2
Heating surface: 229-2 m2

Boiler pressure: 12-7 kg.f./cm2 (some: 14)
Cylinders: 635 x 711 mm
Driving wheels: 1320 mm
Length: 12,624 + 9364mm
Weight (locomotive): Yea: 100-4 t.
Adhesive weight: Yea; 90t;
Empty weight (locomotive): Yea: 84-8 t.;
Empty weight (tender): 26-2 t.
Fuel capacity: 18 t. coal
Water capacity: 28 m3
Maximum axle wt: Yea: 18 t.

Notes: The Yea (Amerikanskii - American) locomotives were very similar to the class Ye f/k/s/l engines purchased from Baldwin, AIco and the Canadian Locomotive Company during the First World War. Compared to the earlier locomotives, they had an improved Chassis design and modified cab, chimney and steam dome, and they lacked the hitherto Characteristic railings along the running-plates. A more modern Soviet-type headlamp was also fitted. The Yem (modernizirovannyi - modernised) had modified piston design, etc., while the Yemv (yodopodogrevatel' - feed-water heater) had a dual-pump system (nos 3988-4000). All were ordered under USA/TC auspices and delivered by sea under Lend-Lease arrangements, mostly to Vladivostok in 1944-45. At first many were used in newly-liberated western areas of the USSR, but these so-called Soyuznitsy (Allies) were soon concentrated in Siberia and Kazakhstan. The majority were stored from the early 1960's, and 1042 (12 active) were still in stock in January 1987, though by then mass withdrawals had begun

Politician01
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loco-loco

Post by Politician01 » 25 Dec 2011 16:28

Alone the USSR couldnt have defeated Germany - at best it would have been a draw.

1. In the years 42,43,44 the USSR produced some 200 000 trucks while Lend Lease delivered some 400 000 during the same time period. In other words 2/3 of Soviet Trucks/Jeeps would have been missing. Thus the Soviets would have to have a much smaller army or else there would have been severe problems with supply.

2. During the war the USSR produced less than 100 Locomotives it got nearly 2000 from Lend Lease - again without Lend Lease 95% of all Locomotives would have been missing. The USSR produced 2000 freight cars during the war - the west delivered 12 000 - without LL there would have been 85% less freight cars. Again a severe blow for the soviet transportation system.

3. The 12 000 tanks and spgs and 22 000 aircraft the USSR got from LL made up 1/9 of total "soviet" tanks and spg avaliable and 1/7 of all "soviet" aircraft avaliable that helped a lot as well.

4. Then there were Millions of tons of fuel, ammunition, food ect ect

Conclusion: Without Lend Lease the USSR would have to produce many of thouse things on its own - that means less produced aircraft, tanks ect. Thus the army would have been weaker and even smaller because insted of beeing soliders people would have to be used as workers.

Just assuming that the USSR would have to build an additional 200 000 trucks/Jeeps - not even the full 400 000 it got from LL. And assuming that the work to produce 10 trucks/jeeps is the same as producting one tank - that would be
20 000 less tanks.

5. The German forces kept away from the Eastern front were substantial.

By early 1942 there were over 1000 german aircraft engaged in North Africa or the air war, as well as some 300 tanks in north africa. In 1942/43 thousands of aircraft and tanks were destroyed by the western allies which could have been sent to Russia otherwise.

Even if they couldnt have been sent to Russia right away because transportation problems they would have formed an excellent replacement force - making replacements for German losses far quicker and easier - keeping up the strenght of the German armed forces.

6. The need to produce over 1000 Uboats and the air war hindered the German ability to make more tanks, trucks guns and aircraft. Assuming that the air war did decrease German prodcution only by 10% and that U boat production did also make up only 10% of German production -there could have been build over 20% more planes, tanks, trucks and guns.

Conclusion: Without the West fighting Germany as well - German production of materiel essential for land warfare would have been much higher and many more could have been sent east because non of the material would have been destroyed while fighting the West.

The Soviets would have won at Moscow in 1941 - but if they could have won at Stalingrad without LL and without large German forces beeing occupied in the West and the war with the west hamstering up large ammounts of the German production - is AT LEAST doubtfull. And from there it would go downhill for the Soviets.

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by ljadw » 25 Dec 2011 19:28

The statement about the LL locomotives is wrong :the fact is that the SU had a big stock of locomotives in june 1941,more than was sent by LL
The same about the trucks:the SU had 200000 trucks in june 1941.

Politician01
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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by Politician01 » 25 Dec 2011 19:49

ljadw wrote:The statement about the LL locomotives is wrong :the fact is that the SU had a big stock of locomotives in june 1941,more than was sent by LL
The same about the trucks:the SU had 200000 trucks in june 1941.
No the statement is absolutely correct.
because from June to December 1941 the USSR lost a large part of all its trucks and locomotives.

From late 1941 to mid 1945 the USSR produced less than a hundred and LL delivered nearly 2000 locomotives.
So 95% of all Locomotives the USSR had in this time period came from the west.

In the years 42-44 the USSR produced only 200 000 but got 400 000 trucks - so 2/3 of all trucks the Ussr had in this time period came from the west.

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by ljadw » 25 Dec 2011 22:32

Politician01 wrote:
ljadw wrote:The statement about the LL locomotives is wrong :the fact is that the SU had a big stock of locomotives in june 1941,more than was sent by LL
The same about the trucks:the SU had 200000 trucks in june 1941.
No the statement is absolutely correct.
because from June to December 1941 the USSR lost a large part of all its trucks and locomotives.

From late 1941 to mid 1945 the USSR produced less than a hundred and LL delivered nearly 2000 locomotives.
So 95% of all Locomotives the USSR had in this time period came from the west.

In the years 42-44 the USSR produced only 200 000 but got 400 000 trucks - so 2/3 of all trucks the Ussr had in this time period came from the west.
Two times wrong :
1)prove it that the SU lost in 1941 a large part of it trucks and locomotives :in december 1941,the Red Army had more trucks than in june :235000(and LL was negligible in 1941)
2)about the loc's :the SU had a lot of loc's in june 194& and a big stock,much more than the 2000 they received from LL

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by ljadw » 25 Dec 2011 22:53

From this forum(impact of LL on the Soviet railways):
on 1 november 1941,the Soviets had lost 231 loc's.
during the war,they received 1200 loc's
on 22 june 1941,they had a stock of 28000 loc's .
With this,all has been said .
I will not waste my time by arguing with some one who is using imaginary figures to prove that the German generals could have won the war,but were prevented by the stupid Hitler .

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by Politician01 » 26 Dec 2011 14:28

ljadw wrote:From this forum(impact of LL on the Soviet railways):
on 1 november 1941,the Soviets had lost 231 loc's.
during the war,they received 1200 loc's
on 22 june 1941,they had a stock of 28000 loc's .
With this,all has been said .
I will not waste my time by arguing with some one who is using imaginary figures to prove that the German generals could have won the war,but were prevented by the stupid Hitler .
Lol I have never before seen someone trying so desperately to prove that the USSR could have won on its own while there was a snowballs chance in hell that this would happen :roll:

No one cares how many locomotives the USSR had in June 1941 - how many were there left in December 1941????

The USSR must have been in desperate need otherwise the West wouldnt have delivered nearly 2000 - not your wrong number of 1200. And since the USSR produced less than 100 locomotives in 4 YEARS ( 1941-1945) your claim of 28000 locomotives in Mid 1941 is VERY doubtfull.

And were not even talking about all the trucks, guns, tanks,planes, fuel, food, ammunition ect ect that came through lend lease, were not even talking about the thousands of German tanks and guns and planes that have been destroyed by the West ect ect and were not even talking about all the industrial effort Germany had to invest in Submarines insted of building tanks planes ect ect
ljadw wrote:in december 1941,the Red Army had more trucks than in june :235000
¨
hm lets see 235 000 trucks avaliable in december 1941 in 1942,1943,1944 the USSR produced 195 000 trucks.
Thats 430 000 trucks - in the Same time period LL delivered 420 000 trucks and Jeeps.

My so out of 850 000 trucks+Jeeps 420 000 were from the West - thats 50%.
Every SECOND truck and jeep would have been missing! SO the red army would have had SEVERE problems with supply- thus beeing much weaker in combat - or it would have to be smaller - and not having numbers on their side againststronger German forces means higher casualties as well - and thats just the trucks and jeeps

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by BDV » 26 Dec 2011 14:38

ljadw wrote:on 1 november 1941,the Soviets had lost 231 loc's.
Given what fraction of USSR had been overrun by November '41, and what of industrial base this represented, I found this claim very doubtful. Now 23% would sound more reasonable.

Also given Soviet style of creative accounting the 28000 is also likely inflated.
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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by Jon G. » 26 Dec 2011 14:55

1) Beute des Heeres as of Nov 1 1941 says 2,237 RR cars and 231 locomotives captured, cf.

Image

...not all that much out of a total stock of maybe over 28,000 locomotives. Losses are however another matter entirely.

Note that loss of territory (along with the RR lines on it) was far more serious to the Soviets than loss of RR stock. Crudely speaking, the Soviets didn't need as much RR stock in 1942 as they did in peacetime because they had lost a great deal of European Soviet territory, meaning that their remaining rail net was correspondingly smaller, and could be served by smaller stocks of RR equipment.

2) This thread may also be of interest:

Impact of Lend-Lease on Soviet railways
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&t=132150

Note, BTW, that Lend-Lease itself increased demands on Soviet Railroads, so no LL would also mean less need for RR rolling stock, crudely speaking.

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by ljadw » 26 Dec 2011 17:01

Jon G.,I know that the figure of 231 is the number of captured loc's,but I doubt that the total number would increase :I don' see the reason why the Sovjets would take away on their retreat,destroyed loc's .

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by Art » 26 Dec 2011 17:09

Note that loss of territory (along with the RR lines on it) was far more serious to the Soviets than loss of RR stock. Crudely speaking, the Soviets didn't need as much RR stock in 1942 as they did in peacetime because they had lost a great deal of European Soviet territory, meaning that their remaining rail net was correspondingly smaller, and could be served by smaller stocks of RR equipment.
Exactly. Generally speaking, the problem of the Soviet Union during the war wasn't lack of locomotives and railway cars. The problem of the Soviet Union was excess of locomotives and railroad cars: by the end of 1941 there were more rolling stock per kilometer of railroad in operation than in June 1941, more then the remaining roads could accommodate. That nearly choked railroad traffic. So in April 1942 the decision was made to remove from exploitation about 100 thousands cars which remained unused until the last phase of the war.

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by ljadw » 26 Dec 2011 17:14

Art,is there any information about the number of the number of operational locomotives the SU had in june 1941?
IMHO,it would be much more than 2000,and,if this is right,that would prove that the importance of the number of LL loc's was very relative .
Thank you .

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by ljadw » 26 Dec 2011 19:01

About the 2000/1200 loc's discussion,I have found a source that is contradicting the 1200 given by M.
Kenny on this forum
number of US loc's sent to Russia
USATC S160 1-4-0-:44 till january 1944,145 between january-july 1944
Alco +Baldwin 1-5-0- :700 Alco +937 Baldwin :between 43-45
Alco ASD 1 Diesel :68 in 1945
Total :1893
2 remarks
1)even 1893 is negligible compared to the number of available Soviet loc's
2) only a maximum of 44 loc's were sent before 1943,thus the importance of the LL loc's should not be overestimated ,whatever certain people may think .
Source is : Pacific war 1941-1945:LL locomotives to Russia .

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by Jon G. » 26 Dec 2011 21:19

ljadw wrote:Jon G.,I know that the figure of 231 is the number of captured loc's,but I doubt that the total number would increase :I don' see the reason why the Sovjets would take away on their retreat,destroyed loc's .
Well, the combined number of engines lost by the Soviets as of Nov. 1 1941 would almost certainly be higher. Consider engines captured by German allies and, more importantly, engines which were total write-offs, and thus not counted as Beute ('booty') 231 train engines for the areas of European USSR captured by the Germans would in fact be a very, very low figure; see below.
Art wrote:Generally speaking, the problem of the Soviet Union during the war wasn't lack of locomotives and railway cars. The problem of the Soviet Union was excess of locomotives and railroad cars: by the end of 1941 there were more rolling stock per kilometer of railroad in operation than in June 1941, more then the remaining roads could accommodate. That nearly choked railroad traffic. So in April 1942 the decision was made to remove from exploitation about 100 thousands cars which remained unused until the last phase of the war.
I follow your point, but didn't the fact that LL wagons and locomotives were in the pipeline affect the Soviet decision to cut back all production of RR stock to virtually zero?
ljadw wrote:...
2) only a maximum of 44 loc's were sent before 1943,thus the importance of the LL loc's should not be overestimated ,whatever certain people may think .
It shouldn't, but LL RR equipment wasn't limited to train engines only. More mundane stuff such as telegraph wire, railroad wagons and iron rails (for building and rebuilding railroads) was sent via the LL program, too.

As a point of comparison to the 231 locomotives captured by the Germans as of Nov. 1 1941, the combined German rail authorities in the occupied USSR had a total of 4,671 operational locomotives on hand as of Dec. 31 1942, and a further 2,088 locomotives were with the Generaldirektion der Ostbahn, which was operating in the Generalgouvernement*.

Note, however, that the Germans re-gauged most captured Soviet railroads from 1520 mm to their own 1435 mm gauge, so capturing Soviet locomotives intact probably was not a very high priority. The low figure of 231 captured as of Nov. 1 1941 illustrates that.

*Figures from Hans Potgiesser: Die deutsche Reichsbahn im Ostfeldzeug p. 140-141.

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Re: Could the Soviet Union have won by itself?

Post by ljadw » 26 Dec 2011 21:35

Good points,I will reply later .

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