Impact of Lend-Lease on Soviet railways

[ljadw]

1)Could the SU have won the war without allies ? IMHO :NO
2)Would the SU have lost the war without allies ? NO
3)Could the SU have won the war without LL? Yes
4)Would the SU have lost the war without LL ? NO

[Politician01]

The usual irrelevant and off topic blahblah:why mention the number of LL tanks and aircraft in a discussion about the number of LL loc's ?
You have claimed that the 2000 LL loc's were essential for the SU ,ignoring /concealing the fact that the SU had between 25000 and 30000 loc's in june 1941,ignoring the fact that we don't know how much loc's the SU lost in 1941-1942,ignoring the fact that the deliveries of the loc's started only later in the war(1943).
The reason is simple :you refuse to admit that the Soviet Army was the equal of the Wehrmacht (something not uncommon with fanboys) and therefore you claim that they only could win because of LL.

Writing that your counterpart writes only blah blah - is the best way to show that you lost the discussion.
You cant deliver any good arguments because the counterparts has brought up points that absolutely destroy your statements so its blah blah

And be civil-I dont like beeing called a fanboy.

Oh and the Red army was definetely NOT equal to the Wehrmacht - allthough the red army outnumbered the Wehrmacht 2 or 3 to 1 and later 5 to 1 or more it still had much larger casualties.

WIthout LL and if all germany forces could have been sent to the East the Red army would have been 2 or 3 times worse of then in OTL.

Dear Ljadw accept it - Lend Lease was life saving for the USSR
As were the large amount of German forces keept away from the east and destroyed by the western allies.

Without this help the USSR would have been either overrun and crushed by Germany or in the best case would have managed a stalemate on the late 1942 or mid 1943 front line.

PS: We are still waiting for your source of 28 000 soviet locs in June 1941..........

[Politician01]

So here a German list about Soviet Locomotives

The list is incompleat but if you count all the locomotives that were produced from 1920-1941 you get around 8000 locomotives.
This numer is surely not the absolute but it makes Ljadws unsupported claim of 28 000 locomotives very doubtfull.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_russ ... bfahrzeuge

Also this German paper talks about 15 000 destroyed Locomotives
http://www.isme.ch/Geschichte-HTML-Vers ... aechte.PDF

This German site talks about 15 800 lost locomotives and 428 000 destroyed freight carts
http://www.politische-oekonomie.org/Dok ... tel_15.htm

So we have ljadws unconfirmed claim of 28 000 locs in June 1941 and if I count the wiki source from LWD - we have three sources that put Soviet locomotive losses between 15 000 and 16000 - most of then in 1941 and 1942.

So even if we take 28 000 locs in mid 1941 -the figure was certainly lower - that would mean the USSR lost over half of their locomotives in 1,5 years and many of thouse remaining were of no use for longer transportation.

So the 2000 LL locomovies and 12 000 freight carts were an enourmous help for the USSR.

[ljadw]

Fight it out with M.Kenny

[ljadw]

The following is from a declassified CIA report of 1948(:Soviet Rolling stock and motor vehicle industries (sadly enough,my post disappeared)
1)At the end of 1947,the SU had some 27000 loc's,below the 1941 level,the production since the end of the war was some 1130 units
2)Before the war,the SU produced annually 175000 trucks,at the end of 1947,it had 1 million trucks, approximating the mid june 1941 levels .
For certain persons,unwilling to believe something that's contradicting their bias :fight it out with Langley

[ljadw]

And,this German site does not mention 15800 destroyed loc's :beschaedigt means damaged.It is better to learn German,before using a German site .

[Politician01]

The following is from a declassified CIA report of 1948(:Soviet Rolling stock and motor vehicle industries (sadly enough,my post disappeared)
1)At the end of 1947,the SU had some 27000 loc's,below the 1941 level,the production since the end of the war was some 1130 units
2)Before the war,the SU produced annually 175000 trucks,at the end of 1947,it had 1 million trucks, approximating the mid june 1941 levels .
For certain persons,unwilling to believe something that's contradicting their bias :fight it out with Langley

1. source???? The post dissappeard yeah righ hahah funny guy.

2. You do know that the Soviets did rob THOUSANDS of Locomotives from Poland, the Baltic, the Balkan and Germany and Austria and Czechoslovakia from 1944-1947 thus massively inflating their numbers :roll:

3. Wait wait - YOU posted sources that claim that the USSR had 200 000 trucks in mid 1941- thats just 1 or 2 pages ago
And now you claim that the USSR had 1 MILLION trucks in mid 1941???

So what now??

[ljadw]

And,if 15800 loc's were damaged,this proves that the SU had at least 15800 loc's (not 8000)

[Politician01]

Ok I FINALLY found a reliable source:

Walter scott Dunn: The Soviet Economy and the Red Army page 199-201

In 1941 the USSR had around 25 000 locomotives

In 1943 the USSR had between 13 000 and 15 000 locomotives left.

In 1942/1943 LL delivered 1300 locomotives and another 700 in 1944/1945

Also the Soviet locs would have been in pretty bad shape and many of them to old to be used for longer traces.
So the exellent LL Locomotives played a very huge role in supporting the Soviet transportation system.

[Tim Smith]

You guys are loco!

So, from the figures above, Lend-Lease was responsible for about 15-20% of the total Soviet capacity? A significant figure, but not one so large as to completely cripple the Soviet rail network if the LL locomotives weren't delivered.

[Politician01]

You guys are loco!

So, from the figures above, Lend-Lease was responsible for about 15-20% of the total Soviet capacity? A significant figure, but not one so large as to completely cripple the Soviet rail network if the LL locomotives weren't delivered.

Yeah LL locs were around 20% of total soviet locomotive stock - but LL locks were all brand new.How many of the remaining Soviet locs were in good shape or post 1930 models that could transport heavy load over vast distances??

But even if we take the 20% of LL locks away - that would mean a 20% decrease for the Soviet railway transportation system. Which is quite a lot.

Also 50% of all Trucks and Jeeps the USSR had at its disposal in 1941-1945 were Western. So there would have been a 50% decrease in Soviet motorized transporation.

Then theres all the millions of tons of food for the soldiers, millions of tons of fuel and minerals for the armed forces and the industry, the 15 million pair of boots, the 22 000 aircraft and 12 000 tanks ect ect

And the large German forces occupied and destroyed by the West and all the German industry directed at U boat building.

Add all this in and its obvious to anybody that the USSR cant win on its own.

[Michael Kenny]

The Soviets had a pre-war 'long-haul' railway system that was used to using large powerful locos. To try and say their existing stock was weak or old will not work.
Not that I think common sense will have any impact in this thread.
It is a standard '' we saved the Soviet ass '' argument from a devout supporter of the German military.
Logic rarely penetrates such mindsets.
The situation has improved slightly over the years. At one time there were those who (seriously) claimed Stalingrad was won by LL locos!

[Jon G.]

Some data, unfortunately all from the mid-1930s:

Ton-kilometers, Soviet railroads, 1935:


Staff employed by Soviet railroads, 1936:


Production of RR cars, 1935:


...and a tidbit about rail quality:

The number of sleepers used to be 1,400-1,500 per kilometer, but recently
it was raised on the Siberian railways to 1,600-1,840. Methods
of preventing rotting of sleepers have only recently found their
way into railway practice in Siberia. At the time of construction
the weight of rails used on the Trans-Siberian Railway was 54 lb.
a yard; later it was increased to 72 lb. Now the weight of rails
on the main line is 76 Ib. per yard (IIa) and 87 lb. per yard (Ia,
43 kg. per meter). But even this should be considered insufficient.
In the United States, where the density of freight traffic per kilometer
is only a fraction of that in Siberia, the weight of rails used is up
to 130 Ib. per yard. This as well as unsatisfactory rail connections
and defective sleepers are causes of relatively numerous railway
accidents.

...quote and figures all taken from Grajdanzev article, source as given upthread.

[ljadw]

Ok I FINALLY found a reliable source:

Walter scott Dunn: The Soviet Economy and the Red Army page 199-201

In 1941 the USSR had around 25 000 locomotives

In 1943 the USSR had between 13 000 and 15 000 locomotives left.

In 1942/1943 LL delivered 1300 locomotives and another 700 in 1944/1945

Also the Soviet locs would have been in pretty bad shape and many of them to old to be used for longer traces.
So the exellent LL Locomotives played a very huge role in supporting the Soviet transportation system.

And,why would "the Soviet Economy and the Red Army"from W.S.Dunn be reliable,and your other source ((the German edition of the Soviet 'Politische Oekomomie" ) not .

[ljadw]

You guys are loco!

So, from the figures above, Lend-Lease was responsible for about 15-20% of the total Soviet capacity? A significant figure, but not one so large as to completely cripple the Soviet rail network if the LL locomotives weren't delivered.

Yeah LL locs were around 20% of total soviet locomotive stock - but LL locks were all brand new.How many of the remaining Soviet locs were in good shape or post 1930 models that could transport heavy load over vast distances??

But even if we take the 20% of LL locks away - that would mean a 20% decrease for the Soviet railway transportation system. Which is quite a lot.

Also 50% of all Trucks and Jeeps the USSR had at its disposal in 1941-1945 were Western. So there would have been a 50% decrease in Soviet motorized transporatio

Then theres all the millions of tons of food for the soldiers, millions of tons of fuel and minerals for the armed forces and the industry, the 15 million pair of boots, the 22 000 aircraft and 12 000 tanks ect ect

And the large German forces occupied and destroyed by the West and all the German industry directed at U boat building.

Add all this in and its obvious to anybody that the USSR cant win on its own.

I had to wait,but,at last there they are :the boots(the secret US weapon) without which the bare-footed Soviets never could go to Berlin .