German Petroleum Supplies

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
ravensclaw
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German Petroleum Supplies

#1

Post by ravensclaw » 13 Jan 2003, 16:13

8) First Post :P

An economics and war effort question(s).

After the fall (switching sides - blah) of Romania where did the sources of German oil come from?

Also When did the allies start focussing (en masse) bombing on axis oil manufacturing/distribution?

Was it running out of oil that ultimately caused the Ardennes Offensive to fail?

Cheers

Colbro
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#2

Post by Colbro » 13 Jan 2003, 18:59

I think one of the major factors in the Ardennes campaign was the weather. From 16th Dec 1944 to 24th Dec, the entire area through which the German armour was advancing was blanketed by fog, which made any aggressive air offensive impossible. But on 24th Dec, the fog lifted and as the allied fighter bombers had little effective opposition from the Luftwaffe, they absolutely massacred the German armour which, for the most part, had advanced into relatively open country and met much the same fate as the armoured columns that were trying to retreat from the Falaise pocket.
It is indeed true that they were running out of fuel but by this time their advance units were only seventy miles short of Antwerp. Had the foggy weather continued, they would have had more time to re-supply their columns, possibly augmented by captured allied fuel supplies.


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Redbaron1908
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#3

Post by Redbaron1908 » 14 Jan 2003, 00:30

i belive that the germans used a method of making coal into gas they mught have used that method affter the ruanians were captured its hard to know i ve read very few books on german petroleum supplies during ww2

Mark V
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Re: German Petroleum Supplies

#4

Post by Mark V » 14 Jan 2003, 01:44

ravensclaw wrote:8) First Post :P
Wellcome.
After the fall (switching sides - blah) of Romania where did the sources of German oil come from?
Here is something to chew up (actually quite a lot :D ) about this:

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_top.htm
Also When did the allies start focussing (en masse) bombing on axis oil manufacturing/distribution?
>>> A preliminary attack was launched on May 12, 1944, followed by another on May 28; the main blow was not struck, however, until after D-day. In the months before D-day and for a shorter period immediately following, all available air power based on England was devoted to insuring the success of the invasion.

Production from the synthetic plants declined steadily and by July 1944 every major plant had been hit. These plants were producing an average of 316,000 tons per month when the attacks began. Their production fell to 107,000 tons in June and 17,000 tons in September. Output of aviation gasoline from synthetic plants dropped from 175,000 tons in April to 30,000 tons in July and 5,000 tons in September. Production recovered somewhat in November and December, but for the rest of the war was but a fraction of pre-attack output.


from: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USS ... mmary.html


Regards, Mark V

ravensclaw
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#5

Post by ravensclaw » 14 Jan 2003, 10:36

Thank You Colbro, Red Baron 1908, and Mark V.

I have found this bombing focus an intriguing piece of lateral thinking on behalf of the allies. Despite allied bombing on armaments manufacture the Germans were still able to produce reasonable quantities of weapons usually of a technologically advanced level.

Why worry about this when you can seriously dampen a whole economy and restrict german offensives to almost skirmishes.

The poor Maus ran out of fuel on the Autobahn and was abandoned (and I think this was done without firing a shot).

Cheers

ravensclaw
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#6

Post by ravensclaw » 14 Jan 2003, 10:52

Mark V - Your second link is excellent. Some great info here.

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Qvist
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#7

Post by Qvist » 14 Jan 2003, 14:16

Hello Ravenclaw.

Basically the answer to your question is; the oilfields of southern Hungary and synthetic fuel production (from coal). More pertinently perhaps: It didn't come. At least not in anything like sufficient quantities.

cheers

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jacobite1
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Oil/petrol from coal.....

#8

Post by jacobite1 » 16 Jan 2003, 13:57

As far as I know ( I haven't studied this...) from about 1942 on Germany produced most of its petrol ( and oil ? ) from coal, of which they had vast reserves.
Question for the present time ?..........
I live in Australia, which has huge coal reserves, as does USA,England, Canada...and many others, Why not produce petrol from coal ?
Not economic ?, but I bet it soon will be.....


Dave Moffitt

Mark V
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Re: Oil/petrol from coal.....

#9

Post by Mark V » 16 Jan 2003, 19:52

jacobite1 wrote: Question for the present time ?..........
I live in Australia, which has huge coal reserves, as does USA,England, Canada...and many others, Why not produce petrol from coal ?
Not economic ?, but I bet it soon will be.....
Dave Moffitt
Hi,

If you are interested about synthetic fuel production, do study South-African oil-companies Sasol and Mossgas, they had done that in seek of national self-sufficiency but apperently with quite high cost. South-Africa is also an country which has abundant supplies of all other natural resources, other than oil.

Regards, Mark V

varjag
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German synthetic oil production

#10

Post by varjag » 17 Jan 2003, 04:21

On the 'old forum' there was some spirited debate about this (perhaps stored ?) and I for one - remember being surprised at the volumes produced by Germany - as I seem to remember some 50% of the total. As for present-day synthetic production - it's quite feasable but is a very 'dirty' industry - running into 'green' objections. Besides OPEC is making sure that the oilprices stay below where synthetics become profitable.

ravensclaw
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#11

Post by ravensclaw » 17 Jan 2003, 10:12

A bit of trivia for you all.

In 1939 and 1940 germany had a significant surplus of oil. Ironically in one instance Germany exported vast amounts of oil to the USA who in turn exported it to England.

Interesting if that oil had of been kept for storage for later campaigns.

:P

varjag
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#12

Post by varjag » 17 Jan 2003, 14:11

ravensclaw wrote:A bit of trivia for you all.

In 1939 and 1940 germany had a significant surplus of oil. Ironically in one instance Germany exported vast amounts of oil to the USA who in turn exported it to England.

Interesting if that oil had of been kept for storage for later campaigns.

:P
Ravensclaw - where did u get that from? Seems hogwash to me. And HOW did Germany export oil to the US in 1940? By German tankers THROUGH the British blockade? You'll have to elaborate on your sources.

gabriel pagliarani
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#13

Post by gabriel pagliarani » 17 Jan 2003, 17:47

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USS ... mmary.html

Powerful site the yours MARK V! Now the real question is:
-Why Ira Eaker and Karl Spaatz decided to destroy gas-plants only in late 1944/ early1945? Why they destroyed unsuccessfully industries as : ball-bearings, Synthetic rubber, pharma, fabrics, light metals, laterices, furnitures, glass ect ect if the bombing of gas-plants had to be so effective?
In my opinion only 2 replies are possible:
A- Spaatz&Eaker were 2 idiots: both them is impossible.
B- The real owners of the German gas -plants were American "Rednecks" like Exxon and Texaco: the rednecks let the destruction of those jewels as EXTREMA RATIO.
Hystory is recycling now in IRAQ...eh!eh! 8)

Mark V
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#14

Post by Mark V » 17 Jan 2003, 20:27

Hi Gabriel,

German synthetic fuel plants (like other chemical industry too) were on the hands on IG Farbenindustrie (IG Farben) which was a conglomerate of German companies like BASF, Hoechst, Bayer, Agfa, Casella, etc....

... and IG Farben did have very good and close connections to Standard Oil, actually these two formed a monopoly which dominated almost all chemical industrial production in the world by the 30s. Standard Oil got petrochemical industry and IG Farben everything else. They also shared patents and technology. Standard Oil shared the production technology of lead tetraethylene with Germans in 30s which made it possible to Germans to make high octane avgas. Without this critical technology - there wouldn't had been the Luftwaffe as we know it.

I am not saying that this was the reason behind of delayed timing of attacks against German synthetic fuel industry. After all, they were attacked eventually. IMHO main reason was an honest mistake in targeting priority. Just like in the case of German electricity production, which was never seriously bombed.

... though there might be room for some serious investigations here.

Regards, Mark V

Mark V
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#15

Post by Mark V » 17 Jan 2003, 22:12

varjag wrote: Ravensclaw - where did u get that from? Seems hogwash to me. And HOW did Germany export oil to the US in 1940? By German tankers THROUGH the British blockade? You'll have to elaborate on your sources.
Would be interesting to hear more about his.

To my knowledge Germany tried desparately (and unsuccesfully) to fill up their allready built strategic fuel depots in last year before war broke out. In same time US, Brits and Dutch made everything possible to limit the fuel imports to Germany to the bare minimum to prevent Germans to accumulate surplus and in this way increase their stockpile of petrochemical products - especially high-octane gasoline.

Regards, Mark V

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