Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
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takata_1940
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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#196

Post by takata_1940 » 15 Apr 2010, 08:00

bf109 emil wrote:
Guaporense wrote:One advantage that Germany had over the allies was their great machinery sector. Before WW2 Germany was the world's largest producer of industrial machinery, as result they started WW2 with the largest stock of machine tools in the world. And they still had more machine tools than the US until 1944:

Machine tool stock:
Germany USA
1940 - 1,177,600 ---- 942,000
1941 - 1,305,800 ---- 1,053,500
1942 - 1,427,800 ---- 1,246,500
1943 - 1,554,900 ---- 1,529,400
1944 - 1,656,800 ---- 1,770,900
Source: The Effects of Strategic Bombing on the German War Economy, USSBR, page 241
are you quoteing from the same poor source as discussed in another threadhttp://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1452820 and quoting from the same exact page 241 of the same source...maybe you should also paste the source so readers can see how the claims are bias and faulty showing not a single machine tool was taken into account as lost through air bombardment for the entire 6 years of war!!! what a joke...p.s. in the end what did Germany have to show for an effectively run war effort if indeed it was not bad after spending billions in RM, having it's citizens killed by allowing poor leadership to continue on with the war, allowing it's cities to be razed to the ground by a poor run Luftwaffe and AA, allow it's armies to not hold a single victory from 1941 on other then squat upon land, inflict casualties and then retreat shaken.

source as quoted from showing how illegitimate the facts and source are that was used to some how make a posting...note read the #2 of the reference showing the incomplete data from the source used by Guar'
Hi "bf109 emil",
Well, actually, to be fair with Guaporense, the source quoted is to be considered accurate and even below reality as far as the German machine-tool number is concerned, as for comparison with US stocks, deduction was made to match US statistical methods.

But also, instead of posting the thread with link, why not posting the relevant page?:
http://wwiiarchives.net/servlet/document/149/240/0
Where it is #241 in site numbering but actually page 230 in the report.

And here, you have to read it again before accusing him of twisting the data, which is not what he did. The note you are refrering to as "bias and faulty" because of "no deduction was made for bombardments effects" doesn't refer to this table (#37) which is showing genuine German annual inventory. This note apply to table 36 (monthly output of machine tools), same page.

As far as the effect of bombings concerning the machine tools, did your read the relevant pages of the same report?
here it is: http://wwiiarchives.net/servlet/document/149/52/0
The best would be to read at least all the chapter IV (The Supply and Use of Capital Equipment), and all the report also. But this would be a minimum in order to understand the issue before accusing him of imaginatory fraudulent quote (which he did sometime, mainly by badly using the data).

S~
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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#197

Post by takata_1940 » 15 Apr 2010, 08:29

err..


Jon G.
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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#198

Post by Jon G. » 15 Apr 2010, 09:19

Hi Olivier,

Just addressing a small part of your post in continuation of a discussion we're having elsewhere, too.
takata_1940 wrote:...(good stuff snipped)
4) the example above is also showing that investments in the transport sectors were not made accordingly with industrial investments (like machine tools or plants buildings) or strategical planning. This deficient planning was during the period 1933-1938. When war broke out, Germany's DRG had less locomotives that she had before the 1929 crisis:

.1928: 26,500 (Altreich)
.1937: 21,618 (Altreich)
.1938: 21,866 (Altreich)
.1939: 25,580 (Altreich, Austria (parts), Sudetenland)
.1940: 28,299 (Altreich, Austria (complete), Sudetenland, Upper Silesia)
.1941: 29,679 (Altreich, Austria, Sudetenland, Upper Silesia, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxemburg, Byalistok)
True, but it should be noted that Third Reich powers-that-were (apparently chiefly Göring) realized the need to prioritize the railroads a bit earlier than that - namely about the time of the Sudeten crisis, where the associated build-up of forces on the Czech border identified weaknesses due to years of neglect of the needs of the Deutsche Reichsbahn. So not only was the locomotive stock rising (if only a little) from 1938; it was also larger and more modern types which were taken on strength from that year on. So it is correct to say that investmen in the DR was overdue and late in coming, but it wasn't non-existent until the advent of Speer's famous Kriegslokomotive programme in 1942.
A crash program of 10,000 locomotives was initiated during 1941-1942 (at war output expense, mainly tanks, which were built by the same plants) but effective only by 1943-1944. Prior to that point, the main contribution to resolve those many shortages came from occupied territories (France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg, Danemark, Norway, Poland..)...
Speer's locomotives began rolling off the production lines already in 1942, with overall war locomotive stock peaking around September 1943. Prior to that programme, locomotive production was gently rising, though, from 1,688 in 1940 to 1,918 in 1941, and 2,637 in 1942*. Production of railroad cars rose more sharply: 28,200 in 1940; 44,845 in 1941, and 60,892 in 1942.

Most locomotives were built by dedicated train engine producers such as Borsig, Schwartzkopf and [above all] Henschel; apart from Henschel, whose involvement in tank production began with the Tiger I, precisely because they had the floor space, powerful cranes, engineering experience and so on associated with building heavy objects, such as locomotives. Other than Henschel, which we can reasonably call a locomotive producer tasked with building tanks and not the other way round, I am not aware of tank manufacturers who got contracts for locomotive construction at the expense of tank construction?

For what it is worth, very little rolling stock was requisitioned from Denmark - conversely, Belgian heavy engineering companies were contracted to build locomotives for the Germans as early as 1940.

*Edit to add: the Reichsbahn estimated that at an average locomotive lifespan of 30 years, they needed 800 new engines every year just to maintain levels and prevent the stock of locomotives from diminishing. But that was a peacetime estimate, wastage during the war must have been much higher.

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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#199

Post by Qvist » 15 Apr 2010, 09:41

I have not yet read Tooze's book, I don't think it would make sense for me to engage in an argument against points that I have not properly researched.
I think you will probably enjoy reading it, once you get around to it. :)
In particular, it is worthy to note that he briefly touches on the aborted 1938 officer's putsch against Hitler, and this should be a reminder that in fact this discussion in many ways is a retroactive reprise of the policy debate happening at the highest levels of the German elite prior to the war. Indeed, the debate about the long term strategic view, is central to that debate, wherein Halder is essentially arguing that Germany is not properly prepared to go to war, and wont have the capacity for it until the middle of the 1940's. This is set against Hitler's view that the strategic initiative should be taken early, and that this will compensate for any lack of preparedness.

Early success seems to vindicate Hitler, historically, while it seems the implications of Tooze's view as summarized here vindicates Halder, as do the actual production stats. It seems pertinent to point out that the essentials of this debate were had in detail, and that the German military command did not go in blind, and a decision was made, based on a fairly accurate appraisal of Germany's war making potential.

If I recall correctly, Herman Goering's position is somewhere in between the two views. However, given the way the war worked out, I find it very hard for me to dispute Galbraith's contention that 1939 was Germany's best window of opportunity.
Tooze doesn't actually dispute that either. Not that he really makes any argument as to when Germany should go to war, but he does note the strong factors that supported it. By early 1939 German rearmament had hit a threshold due to raw material and financial constraints that prevented it from accelerating further, while her future enemies were increasing the pace of their buildup. Hence, Germany had to reckon with a deterioration in her relative position.
The chapter then goes on to describe how the effort to cut back on capital investment, and redirect labour to production was undermined by one means or another, and then asserts that this was a direct cause of the need to start staffing new factories with imported labour of one kind of another. How much of his conclusion about how the decision to import labour came to be taken is anyone's guess, but I see no reason to dispute Speer's claim that capital was chronically underutilized.
and Takata
What made the limitation of steel output was the cumulation of several factors: a) losses of highly skilled manpower drafted; b
Which moves us towards one of those "a-ha" experiences that really brings home just how much of a handicap manpower shortages was to the German war effort. My involvement with industrial shortages is only tangential, I study the problem primarily from the point of view of the army in the east. And what is striking is that there you have a mirror image of the same problem. Just like Speer, OKH is always struggling with the problem of manpower shortages as a key limitation - arguably the key limitation. Just like in the economy, this resulted in an under-utilisation of capacity. In the sense that it condemned a large part of the Ostheer's formation to operate at strength levels that were wasteful, in that the actual capacities of formations degraded assymetrically as a result of almost all the understrength being in its combat elements. And just like Speer was tearing his hair over how the army took away the manpower he needed to do his job, the army was tearing its hair over the impossibility of securing the men it desperately needed from the economy, at least to the extent required. This, by the way, was not quite outside Speer's sphere of control - in several cases, he managed to successfully oppose, pare back or sabotage the Wehrmacht's manpower demands. The Wehrmacht couldn't simply request what it needed and then receive it, it was always a political struggle and they rarely if ever seem to have gotten everything they wanted.

I always find it instructive to quote (BdE, Head of Ersatzheer) Fromm's remarks from February 1941. Fromm stressed the point that Germany is already in the position where manpower resources are overstretched, and that consequently the available resources must be prioritised. How did this come to pass, after less than 18 months of war in which no very serious losses had been incurred? Between the reintroduction of conscription and the outbrek of war, it had only been possible to train two year classes of reservists. This was not sufficient as a numerical basis for the Wehrmacht. There was no other choice than to make use of the roughly 1.2 million men with WWI service experience who were still available. The great mass of JG01-13 had not been trained at the outbreak of war. After the quick victory in Poland, the focus shifted to mobilising the economy for war, which also entailed the release of men from the armed forces to industry. These were attempted replaced with men less useful to the economy, but these had for the most part first to be trained. Fromm here uses the word “Völkerwanderung” to describe the two-way flow of personnell between the polish and Western campaigns, before devoting considerable space to a perhaps not fully objective description of the protracted manpower tug-of-war with industry during that period.

By the time this meeting took place (sadly it is not possible to quote the figures Fromm speak about, as this documentation has evidently not survived), the number of UK-gestellte was almost as large as the strength of the WH. At that time, EH had 150,000 men JG00-07 available, and around 100,000 from 08-21. JG22, a very strong year group, were to have their call-up deferred for as long as possible – possibly until autumn. Additionally, there were some 90,000 trained men in the pools of the Wehrersatzdienststellen. Summation: "Die Darstellung zeigt, dass die Ersatzlage sehr angespannt ist und für das Kampfjahr 1941 noch nur sehr geringe verfügbare Reserven vorhanden sind“. The „white year groups“ of 1900-1912 were already largely expended. As a result, EH was discussing a wide range of emergency measures, as well as calls for more men from the economy.

It is worth underlining that this was seven months after the end of the Western campaign, and 4 months before the beginning of Barbarossa, which was expected to be over in a few months. How things stood at the end of 1941, after 800,000 casualties in the East and with the prospect of continuing heavy fighting for the foreseeable future, you can well imagine.

What the study of the Ostheer's manpower situation has however also taught me is that the existence of such inescapable constraints doesn't neccessarily mean that the best possible use was made of the resources they did get. In the case of the army, many of the worst consequences were in fact self-inflicted, and stemmed from the hopeless policy of raising a far too large number of new divisions while refusing to disband existing ones. This caused a steadily increasing number of formations in an army of basically stagnant strength, which again made it impossible to keep formations up to strength. The net result of that was scores of divisions with largely intact support services but minimal combat capabilities.

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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#200

Post by takata_1940 » 15 Apr 2010, 10:15

Hello Jon,
Jon G wrote:
takata_1940 wrote:...(good stuff snipped)
4) the example above is also showing that investments in the transport sectors were not made accordingly with industrial investments (like machine tools or plants buildings) or strategical planning. This deficient planning was during the period 1933-1938. When war broke out, Germany's DRG had less locomotives that she had before the 1929 crisis:
True, but it should be noted that Third Reich powers-that-were (apparently chiefly Göring) realized the need to prioritize the railroads a bit earlier than that - namely about the time of the Sudeten crisis, where the associated build-up of forces on the Czech border identified weaknesses due to years of neglect of the needs of the Deutsche Reichsbahn. So not only was the locomotive stock rising (if only a little) from 1938; it was also larger and more modern types which were taken on strength from that year on. So it is correct to say that investmen in the DR was overdue and late in coming, but it wasn't non-existent until the advent of Speer's famous Kriegslokomotive programme in 1942.
Well, I said that planning was deficient during the period 1933-1938 as I knew the difficulties encountered during the Czech crisis. Now, if difficulties were already underlined at that stage (considering the moderate needs at this point vs. later full war needs), it is no surprise at all that every subsequent rail crisis was serious from the winter 1939 to mid-1943. As for rail investments, they were not inexistant but inadequate (still in prevision of future needs).
Jon G wrote:
A crash program of 10,000 locomotives was initiated during 1941-1942 (at war output expense, mainly tanks, which were built by the same plants) but effective only by 1943-1944. Prior to that point, the main contribution to resolve those many shortages came from occupied territories (France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg, Danemark, Norway, Poland..)...
Speer's locomotives began rolling off the production lines already in 1942, with overall war locomotive stock peaking around September 1943. Prior to that programme, locomotive production was gently rising, though, from 1,688 in 1940 to 1,918 in 1941, and 2,637 in 1942*. Production of railroad cars rose more sharply: 28,200 in 1940; 44,845 in 1941, and 60,892 in 1942.
Right, but the needs were also climbing more sharply. The over-extension of the network going far in the East being not for nothing as a root cause, while full coal deliveries in the Ruhr's steel plants were never achieved. The Ruhr suffered a ratio of yearly deliveries about 85% of peacetime levels. When looking at steel output for the same period, steel output was at the same level.
Jon G wrote:Most locomotives were built by dedicated train engine producers such as Borsig, Schwartzkopf and [above all] Henschel; apart from Henschel, whose involvement in tank production began with the Tiger I, precisely because they had the floor space, powerful cranes, engineering experience and so on associated with building heavy objects, such as locomotives. Other than Henschel, which we can reasonably call a locomotive producer tasked with building tanks and not the other way round, I am not aware of tank manufacturers who got contracts for locomotive construction at the expense of tank construction?
Big metal working corporations like Krupp and MAN were also building rolling stock (AFAIK) and were also producing Panzers. Henschel is an obvious case but the ring of Panzers producers involved many companies working also for the Deutsche Reichsbahn (engine, parts, electrical components, etc.). I don't remember which report mentioned that almost all the initial ring was exclusively Eisenbahn related and not from the Automotive industry, which caused later problems for addressing the mass production methods for Panzer output.

Anyway, your comments are fairly completing my post rather than opposing it.
S~
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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#201

Post by takata_1940 » 15 Apr 2010, 10:47

Hello Qvist,
Qvist wrote:
What made the limitation of steel output was the cumulation of several factors: a) losses of highly skilled manpower drafted; b
Which moves us towards one of those "a-ha" experiences that really brings home just how much of a handicap manpower shortages was to the German war effort. My involvement with industrial shortages is only tangential, I study the problem primarily from the point of view of the army in the east. And what is striking is that there you have a mirror image of the same problem. Just like Speer, OKH is always struggling with the problem of manpower shortages as a key limitation - arguably the key limitation. Just like in the economy, this resulted in an under-utilisation of capacity.
Right. And the more striking is that the economy had also its own share of "combat casualties" (beside those related to war). In fact, Speer mentioned that each full year of war caused a deficit of above 1,000,000 "casualties" for the Industry. That was the 600,000 or so class that was drafted by the Wehrmacht, added to the 400,000 natural losses of workers due to age, sickness, accidents, etc. Then he had to replace 1 million person per year, but he was never himself in charge of the manpower question which was under Saukel (which had different views about the manpower question than him).
Qvist wrote: By the time this meeting took place (sadly it is not possible to quote the figures Fromm speak about, as this documentation has evidently not survived), the number of UK-gestellte was almost as large as the strength of the WH.
I've got this figure of UK-Gestellte* from Wagenführ (page 157), at least for the Industry:
31.5.1941...... 2,518,042 (Altreich, Ostmark, Sudetenland)
31.5.1942...... 2,411,220 (idem)
31.5.1943...... 2,126,042 (idem)
31.5.1944...... 2,118,802 (idem)
Maschinen, Stahl- u. Fahrzeugbau groups totaled respectively 771,910; 715,451; 595,588; 587,904 workers for the Altreich zone only.
[*Note: "UK-Gestellte" are people who should have been drafted but reserved for Industrial production, mostly highly skilled specialists in armament or critical supply activities]

S~
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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#202

Post by Qvist » 15 Apr 2010, 11:45

Hm. The claim concerning the number of UK-gestellte is simply made by Fromm, no actual figure. The statistics from Wagenführ however give much lower figures than other sources such as Wehrersatzplan 45. Also, they are hard to reconcile with the volume of UK-gest. drafted by the army every year from 42 onwards, which ran into many hundreds of thousands. These are the WEP45 figures (for the number of UK-gestellte in the economy, which, since men were also released from the armed forces to the economy is not synonymous with the number of UK-gestellte called up):

1.1.43 - 4,637,900 (2,260,500)
1.7.43 - 3,957,100 (2,015,300)
1.1.44 - 3,573,700 (1,828,500)

However - Wagenführ's data fits well with the UK-gestellte just from Bedarfstellen 11-22,24 and 28 (OT, Construction, Mining, Oil, energy, Fisheries, Army, navy, Luftwaffe, crafts, Armaments industry), who are normally grouped together. This is the figures in paranthesis. The 1.1.44 figure may seem low, but during the spring of 1944 the Wehrmacht changed its service suitability classifications which caused many previously classed "Verwendungsfähig Garnison Heimat" and hence not included among the UK-Gest. to be encompassed in the new simplified "Bedingt Kriegsverwendungsfähig", which were included. As a result, the figures for UK-gestellte increased, and are not comparable to earlier figures (just below 4 million on 1.5.44, with 2.2 million in the armaments category, slightly lower figures by 1.8.). In real terms, significant numbers of UK-gestellte were called up during the first half of 1944 which must have caused a continued drop. It is much more difficult to judge due to the change in the basis of the statistics, but it does seem like the pace of call-ups declined compared to 1943. Very likely, it was by this time becoming very difficult to free up men from the economy, particularly when one takes into consideration that the proportion of fully fit men of suitable age within the UK-gest. group must have steadily declined (these of course tended to be among the first to be called up, while men were also flowing from the armed forces and into the UK-gest. group who were of limited use due to injury and/or age). By mid-late 1944, it took the extraordinary politically backed pressure of the Goebbels-Aktion from late summer to procure additional large numbers, and even that failed to meet targets (some 450,000 out of a planned 500,000 men by November). By the end of 1944, there must have been precious few militarily suitable men left in the economy - out of a total male population of 13,147,000 aged 19-38, 10,627,000 did (or had done? The totals add up to more than 12 million, which seems high for late 1944) military service. By contrast, out of 11,528,000 men aged 39 and up who were somehow employed, only slightly over 2 million were in the armed forces. In effect, when you take into consideration that a significant proportion of every year group was unsuited for military service, this means that there was little or nothing left to use - aprt, of course, for the 18-year olds and younger, which had an overall strength of about 600,000 per year group.

Anyway, as you see, fewer than half the drop in UK-gestellte during 1943 pertained to these sectors, and the overall drop is much larger - more than 1 million men. The armaments sector (as defined above) did not escape the consequences, but it wasless affected than other sectors (interestingly, apart from "SS, Police and Party", in which the number of UK-gestellte actually increased slightly). This is how the various sectors did from the beginning to the end of 1943:

Bedarfstelle Nr/ Sector/ Index (1.1.43=100)
1 Reichsbahn: 75,1
2 to 4 Other transport: 73,4
5 Reichspost : 60,9
6,8,9,10 Police, Party, SS, RAD: 100,8
7 Administration: 49,9
11-22,24,28: OT, Construction, Mining, Oil, energy, Fisheries, Army, navy, Luftwaffe, crafts, Armamants industry: 80,9
23 Wehrmacht agencies: 75,1
25,26 Agriculture and food supply: 77,0
27 Forestry: 71,6
29, 30 Press, Propaganda: 68,4
31 Other : 22,3



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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#203

Post by Jon G. » 15 Apr 2010, 12:41

takata_1940 wrote:...
Well, I said that planning was deficient during the period 1933-1938 as I knew the difficulties encountered during the Czech crisis. Now, if difficulties were already underlined at that stage (considering the moderate needs at this point vs. later full war needs), it is no surprise at all that every subsequent rail crisis was serious from the winter 1939 to mid-1943. As for rail investments, they were not inexistant but inadequate (still in prevision of future needs).
Right. Although I know that was not what you meant, one could get the impression from your post, above, that investment in the Reichsbahn went from virtually nil pre- and early war to a whole lot at once following Speer's crash locomotive programme.
Right, but the needs were also climbing more sharply.
...and perhaps doubly so due to the Wehrmacht's motor vehicle requisitionings and the scarcity of motor fuel. But for railroads alone, it would seem that production was following suit:

Measured by tons' worth dry-weight/year, German locomotive deliveries went from c. 10,000 tons in 1932 (an all-time low) to c. 25,000 tons in 1935 (a figure which remained stable thru 1937); c. 50,000 tons in 1938; c. 105,000 tons in 1939; c. 120,000 tons in 1940; c. 160,000 tons in 1941; 240,000 tons in 1942; 350,000 tons in 1943; 530,000 tons in 1944 and down to just 8,500 tons in 1945. Plotted into a graph, as Alfred Gottwaldt does on p. 45 of Deutsche Kriegslokomotiven 1939-1945, that describes almost vertical growth in yearly locomotive output from 1941 to 1944.

Although it should be kept in mind that Gottwald's figures include exports.
The over-extension of the network going far in the East being not for nothing as a root cause, while full coal deliveries in the Ruhr's steel plants were never achieved. The Ruhr suffered a ratio of yearly deliveries about 85% of peacetime levels. When looking at steel output for the same period, steel output was at the same level.
The particular bottleneck for steel was chiefly coking coal. Overall Ruhr coal output was declining from its 1939 peak, so the lower deliveries may also very well have been a function of that, rather than the DR failing to perform. It was only with the disruption of the Reich's transport system, well into 1944, that distribution really became an issue. Until then, I would blame the declining Ruhr coal output.

Remember, not all Ruhr coal was used locally - some of it went as far away as Italy, and because Silesian coal was less useful for coking, probably also to other regions of the Reich.
Big metal working corporations like Krupp and MAN were also building rolling stock (AFAIK) and were also producing Panzers. Henschel is an obvious case but the ring of Panzers producers involved many companies working also for the Deutsche Reichsbahn (engine, parts, electrical components, etc.). I don't remember which report mentioned that almost all the initial ring was exclusively Eisenbahn related and not from the Automotive industry, which caused later problems for addressing the mass production methods for Panzer output.
MAN - not all that much, and Krupp's Essen works were apparently wrecked by British bombing in March 1943, and at any rate Krupp didn't participate in the war locomotive programme - the biggest producer in that programme was Henschel, who had two production lines building war locomotives, and one line building Tiger tanks, at their Kassel plant.

Check out the Lieferverzeichnisse, although the guy running the site wants you to buy his CD if you want a peek at Krupp's rolling stock output between 1922 and 1987 :)
Anyway, your comments are fairly completing my post rather than opposing it.
Indeed.

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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#204

Post by takata_1940 » 15 Apr 2010, 12:43

Well, the best I can do is to post the full table.
You'll find all the details about the repartition by industrial branches. This is not for the whole economy but only the deutschen Industrie (Altreich) with totals for Austria and Sudetenland.
Here it is:
UKGestellte.jpg
UKGestellte.jpg (194.31 KiB) Viewed 705 times
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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#205

Post by Qvist » 15 Apr 2010, 12:54

Hi Olivier

That would tend to support the assumption I make above, namely that this would roughly correspond to just one of the categories in the overall statistics, which accounts for about half of the UK-gestellten. Fisheries seem to be missing, but that was a fairly marginal sector.

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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#206

Post by takata_1940 » 15 Apr 2010, 13:26

Myself wrote:I've got this figure of UK-Gestellte* from Wagenführ (page 157), at least for the Industry:
31.5.1941...... 2,518,042 (Altreich, Ostmark, Sudetenland)
31.5.1942...... 2,411,220 (idem)
31.5.1943...... 2,126,042 (idem)
31.5.1944...... 2,118,802 (idem)
But i made it clear before posting the data (at least in my head)
:lol:
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PS: Fisheries are not part of the Industrie but Agriculture, like forestry, etc.

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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#207

Post by Qvist » 15 Apr 2010, 14:07

Myself wrote:
I've got this figure of UK-Gestellte* from Wagenführ (page 157), at least for the Industry:
31.5.1941...... 2,518,042 (Altreich, Ostmark, Sudetenland)
31.5.1942...... 2,411,220 (idem)
31.5.1943...... 2,126,042 (idem)
31.5.1944...... 2,118,802 (idem)
But i made it clear before posting the data (at least in my head)
Yes, I know. But I thought they should be put into an overall context, and it was not obvious if that corresponded precisely to the division used in the WEP45.
PS: Fisheries are not part of the Industrie but Agriculture, like forestry, etc.
Not in the statistics in the WEP45. I have no idea why it is included in the sector that is otherwise basically Industry, it makes no obvious sense to me. But it is.

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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#208

Post by takata_1940 » 15 Apr 2010, 14:39

Jon G. wrote:
Right, but the needs were also climbing more sharply.
...and perhaps doubly so due to the Wehrmacht's motor vehicle requisitionings and the scarcity of motor fuel. But for railroads alone, it would seem that production was following suit:
Measured by tons' worth dry-weight/year, German locomotive deliveries went from c. 10,000 tons in 1932 (an all-time low) to c. 25,000 tons in 1935 (a figure which remained stable thru 1937); c. 50,000 tons in 1938; c. 105,000 tons in 1939; c. 120,000 tons in 1940; c. 160,000 tons in 1941; 240,000 tons in 1942; 350,000 tons in 1943; 530,000 tons in 1944 and down to just 8,500 tons in 1945. Plotted into a graph, as Alfred Gottwaldt does on p. 45 of Deutsche Kriegslokomotiven 1939-1945, that describes almost vertical growth in yearly locomotive output from 1941 to 1944.
Although it should be kept in mind that Gottwald's figures include exports.
It seems that export of Locomotives, due to problems above mentioned, was cut to zero after war broke out.
Jon G. wrote:
The over-extension of the network going far in the East being not for nothing as a root cause, while full coal deliveries in the Ruhr's steel plants were never achieved. The Ruhr suffered a ratio of yearly deliveries about 85% of peacetime levels. When looking at steel output for the same period, steel output was at the same level.
The particular bottleneck for steel was chiefly coking coal. Overall Ruhr coal output was declining from its 1939 peak, so the lower deliveries may also very well have been a function of that, rather than the DR failing to perform. It was only with the disruption of the Reich's transport system, well into 1944, that distribution really became an issue. Until then, I would blame the declining Ruhr coal output.
Here is few pages from: Alfred C. Mierzejewski, The Most Valuable Asset of the Reich: A History of the German National Railway; UNC Press, 2000; volume 2.
first one quote from p.76:
In July 1939, at the meeting that he chaired to set priorities for the allocation of the Reichsbahn's car space, Kleinmann sounded a warning to his listeners. He told the group that he had called them together so that they would not be surprised when a large number of requirements were not fulfilled... My purpose is to give you a warning in time. His message was clear: the approaching military operations would prevent the Reichsbahn from simultaneously satisfying civilian needs. The Reichsbahn was less able to satisfy demand than it had been at the height of the transportation crisis in late 1938.
and pages 90-92:
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Last edited by takata_1940 on 15 Apr 2010, 14:41, edited 1 time in total.

takata_1940
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Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#209

Post by takata_1940 » 15 Apr 2010, 14:40

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takata_1940
Member
Posts: 469
Joined: 01 Jun 2007, 06:48
Location: France

Re: Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?

#210

Post by takata_1940 » 15 Apr 2010, 14:57

Qvist wrote:[
Not in the statistics in the WEP45. I have no idea why it is included in the sector that is otherwise basically Industry, it makes no obvious sense to me. But it is.
cheers
Well, I'll investigate those WEP45 stats once I've got them soon and I will report to you my investigations on this matter.
:D
Olivier

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