German vs. Allied war-making potential

[phylo_roadking]

Well, second to the copy of the world economic survey in google books, p. 73 we have:

Aluminium (1942)
US - 473,000 metric tons
Germany - 350,000
UK - 48,000

You confused the US with UK!

Bullsh1t. NOW you're choosing to reference 1942!

But back up the thread you referenced 1943 for your comparison! As in THIS -

Germany was economically superior to both Britain and the USSR, maybe Ger was economically superior to both put together (in 1943, Britain produced 13 MT of steel, 50 KT of aluminium and 200 MT of coal, while the USSR produced 8.5 MT of steel, 50 KT of aluminium and 130 MT of coal equivalent energy (coal + oil), Ger produced 31 MT of steel,50 KT of aluminium and 560 MT of coal, so Ger produced 50% more steel, 125% more aluminium and 60% more energy than Britain and the USSR put together).

So you're just plain bullsh1tting when you're caught out. HERE you try to bullsh1t again...

Well, then I use the 1942 figures:

page 204 War and Economy in the Third Reich

HERE you try it AGAIN -

There you go Phylo! Britain made 171,000 tons of "major combatants" in 1944. Like I said before. Germany made about twice that.

You even have the nerve to POST UP the level of bullsh1t you're trying to pawn off on us -

Thats the numbers of Britain for YA:

Warships, thousands of tons

1941 - 226
1942 - 234
1943 - 174
1944 - 171

That's warships, total - NOT your oh so selective all-of-a-sudden "major combatants"!

By the way - ONCE again I have to not-so gently remind you...that your comparison Britain vs. Germany was not for 1944...

I am talking about warships. Britain made 170.000 tons of warships in 1943, while Germany made twice

Wrong year! That's how many times you've done that in just two posts? Getting to look VERY deliberate - and it's STILL well-wrong for 1943... The WES shows that Britain constructed 497,000 tons of warship tonnage in 1943, not your 171kt.

Poston proves it, your own referenced source the WES proves it for your comparison year of 1943 - face it...no matter how you try to wiggle on that, and change the years you got it WAY wrong. You simply didn't read your own original source correctly, whatever it was, and made a stupidly incorrect comparison so many pages back.

By the way - ***The 1944 comparison you made was ONLY with the U.S. and is a very different comparison.*** Just to confirm that - here it is -

it is clear that the US produced 1.0 million tons of warships in 1944, while they produced several times that in terms of shipping, landing craft and small boats. I think that having Britain producing 20% of the US's warships ships is quite precise

And you've been proved wrong in detail on THAT too - Britain produced 75% of the naval tonnage that American did in 1944.

Really, you do NOT get away with that level of obfustication and cr@p here.

[Guaporense]

Well, second to the copy of the world economic survey in google books, p. 73 we have:

Aluminium (1942)
US - 473,000 metric tons
Germany - 350,000
UK - 48,000

You confused the US with UK!

Bullsh1t. NOW you're choosing to reference 1942!

But back up the thread you referenced 1943 for your comparison! As in THIS -

Germany was economically superior to both Britain and the USSR, maybe Ger was economically superior to both put together (in 1943, Britain produced 13 MT of steel, 50 KT of aluminium and 200 MT of coal, while the USSR produced 8.5 MT of steel, 50 KT of aluminium and 130 MT of coal equivalent energy (coal + oil), Ger produced 31 MT of steel,50 KT of aluminium and 560 MT of coal, so Ger produced 50% more steel, 125% more aluminium and 60% more energy than Britain and the USSR put together).

So you're just plain bullsh1tting when you're caught out. HERE you try to bullsh1t again...

Well:

For 1943
Aluminium
Britain: 57,000
Germany: 325,000

the 450,000 figure for 1943 refers to Canada. Well, that's part of the British empire, but not Britain.

[phylo_roadking]

2) Relying on steel production alone or with only one or two other measures such as Aluminum production as a measure of economic or industiral strength

2) They are good measures: With Steel you make guns, bullets, cannons, horseshoes, ships and tanks.

Er....no they are NOT good measures - for without a whole range of alloying metals you do NOT make cannons with steel etc. You do not make a whole range of items without alloying metals. You ALSO have to look at national production of nickel, manganese, chromium...

With coal and oil you make energy to make an industrial economy work.

Would you care in illustrate with sources what percentage of German energy consumed in industry in WWII was produced by OIL-fired electricity generation???

[Guaporense]

Germany was more than capable of maintaining armies with enough equipment and supplies to fight effectively anything that the allies could throw at them.

Care to explain why the Heer used hundred of thousands of horses when the 1944 divisions on the Western Front had none ?

what's wrong with horses?

Germany was economically superior to both Britain and the USSR, maybe Ger was economically superior to both put together

Nonsense.

You're merely giving examples with some carefully chosen items, which by themselves are not relevant to the question of "economic superiority" (whatever it means).

Carefully chosen items? Energy and steel?

Energy and steel were the determinants of potential munition production.

And Overy did make the point that Germany had superior economic resources than Britain and the USSR combined.

In which book/article ?

Why the Allies Won.

[phylo_roadking]

For 1943
Aluminium
Britain: 57,000
Germany: 325,000

the 450,000 figure for 1943 refers to Canada. Well, that's part of the British empire, but not Britain

...who was producing Valentine and Sherman tanks, Hurricane fighters and Lancaster bombers, corvettes and other warships and a WHOLE range of other items as British war materiel...

1) GDP of annexed territories to the Reich should be added immediately. But I think that you should not measure GDP of occupied territories not annexed, instead you should compute their payment of occupation forces.

Is there any point in mentioning ALL the caveats in the WES about coal/iron&steel/alloying metals production in the occupied nations dropping rapidly during Occupation?

[phylo_roadking]

Germany was more than capable of maintaining armies with enough equipment and supplies to fight effectively anything that the allies could throw at them

what's wrong with horses?

They tend not to make very good anti-tank weapons....and I don't believe I've ever heard of a B-17 being brought down by a horse...

[phylo_roadking]

Carefully chosen items? Energy and steel?

Energy and steel were the determinants of potential munition production.

I almost hate to have to mention the word....brass....

[RichTO90]

Well:

For 1943
Aluminium
Britain: 57,000
Germany: 325,000

the 450,000 figure for 1943 refers to Canada. Well, that's part of the British empire, but not Britain.

To be precise, domestic British production in 1943 was 55,660 long tons of virgin (new) and 93,480 long tons of secondary (recycled, including from crashed aircraft ) aluminium. Another 213,000 long tons was imported for use in British production.

So if Canada does not get included I suppose that means Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland don't either, since they aren't Germany?

[phylo_roadking]

Energy and steel were the determinants of potential munition production

And even if you were even generally right in that - you'd still be WAY off...

...for the MAIN determinant of potential munition production is actually.....NITRATES!

[phylo_roadking]

Rich, thanks for the more detailed breakdown on the WES figure. Is THIS -

Another 213,000 long tons was imported for use in British production.

... as ingots/finished castings, or as bauxite?

[RichTO90]

Rich, Thanks for that invitation to squander my entire working day tomorrow.

How do you think I'm feeling about this latest exercise in futility (you can lead a horse...and all that)? :roll: I guess I'm just putting off doing my Christmas cards and wrapping presents...

As a general observation, I find that when I compile combat losses in the East from the reports of the armies, I invariably seem to end up with higher figures than shown in central documentation, whether its Org.Abt. overviews or VVW. Not by a huge margin though, typically perhaps 10% thereabouts.

cheers

Thanks!

[phylo_roadking]

I guess I'm just putting off doing my Christmas cards and wrapping presents...

While it's not too late, may I recommend...

http://www.cafepress.co.uk/+urashit_pos ... 8,89295910

[RichTO90]

Really, you do NOT get away with that level of obfustication and cr@p here.

It's amazing what some people think they can get away with. :roll:

The "major combatants" that Germany completed in 1944 were:

1 Destroyer
6 Torpedo Boats
248 (nearly useless) U-Boot

The "major combatants" the British completed were:

4 Aircraft carriers
2 Cruisers
31 Destroyers
39 Submarines

The "minor combatants" the British completed were:

17 Sloops (larger than the German torpedo boats)
68 Frigates and corvettes (ditto)

Who was outproducing whom? :roll:

[Michael Kenny]

I might as well post my entire write-up on the subject again. Unfortunately the table formatting will drop out, and I'm not going to reformat them all, so I hope you'll get the sense of them...

Table I.:

Heer Casualties 9 Sep 39 - 31 August 1944, Taetigskeitbericht, Chef d. Heerespersonellamt, c. August 1944,
NARA T78, R39, F1497)
Losses in the Army and Waffen SS
..........................................KIA ....................WIA ...............MIA ................Total
Army Officers.......................60,302................101,853...........21,001..............183,156
Waffen SS Officers (to 31 Jul) ....2,685 .....................253 ....................................2,938
Army NCO & Enlisted ..........1,460,388..............3,497,391......... 826,451 ............5,784,230
Waffen SS NCO & Enlisted.........60,991 ................19,847 ..................................80,838
Total .............................1,584,366..............3,599,244..........867,192............6,050,802

Table II.:
Heer Casualties 9 Sep 39 – 31 Jan 1945 (KTB d. OKW, Band IV, 1509-1511)
Losses in the Heer and Waffen SS
..........................................KIA .......................WIA...................... MIA................... Total
Ostheer.......................... 1,105,987................3,498,059 ................1,018,365 ............5,622,411
Geb.AOK.2..........................16,639 ....................60,451..................... 5,157 ................82,247
OB Süd-West .......................50,481...................163,602................... 194,250...............408,333
OB Süd-Ost .........................19,235....................55,069 .....................14,805................89,109
OB West............................107,042...................399,856................... 409,715 ..............916,613
Ersatzheer ..........................10,467 ....................42,174 .....................1,337 ................53,978
DOW ................................295,569........................................................................295,569
Heer Total .......................1,605,510................ 4,219,211 .................1,643,629 ..........7,468,350
Other Total ..........................17,051 ....................2,687 .............................................19,738
Total ..............................1,622,561 ............. 4,188,037 .................1,646,316 ...........7,546,914


Table III.
Heer Losses in the Polish, Norwegian, French, and Balkan Campaigns
(Organizationsabteilung d. Gen,Stb. d. OKH. 6 Feb 45, NARA T78, R414, F3226-3227

Losses in the Feldheer
...........................KIA................WIA......................MIA............................Total
Poland ................8,082............. 27,278 ....................5,029 .........................40,389
Norway ...............1,166 ..............1,548 ....................1,091 ...........................3,805
France.............. 27,650 ............115,299.................. 13,607........................ 156,556
Balkans...............1,593 ...............4,845..................... 644 ...........................7,082
Total ................38,491 ............148,970.................. 20,371 ........................207,832

Table IV.
Feldheer Casualties 22 Jun 41-10 Jan 45 (Heeresartz i. OKH, Gen.Stb. d. Heer/Gen.Qu., NARA T78, R414, F3228-3229)
Losses in the Heer, Waffen SS, and Luftwaffe Ground Troops

...........................KIA.................WIA.................. MIA....................Total
Ostheer .............888,262 ...........3,458,986 ..............1,107,339............... 5,454,587
Geb.AOK 20 .........16,299 ...............60,329.....................6,845...................83,473
AOK Norwegen............21 ....................94 .........................1 ......................116
OB Süd-West........ 44,433..............160,106 ................204,854 ..................409,393
OB Süd-Ost ..........16,113 ..............48,585 ..................16,784 ....................81,482
OB West...............60,526.............199,107............... .393,188....................652,821
Total ..............1,025,654...........3,927,207...............1,729,011.................6,681,872

Table V.
Feldheer Casualties 1 Jun 44-10 Jan 45 (Heeresartz i. OKH, Gen.Stb. d. Heer/Gen.Qu., NARA T78, R414, F3228-3229)
Losses in the Heer, Waffen SS, and Luftwaffe Ground Troops
............................KIA ......................WIA...................... MIA........................ Total
Ostheer..............136,493.................632,028 ..................565,834 ...................1,334,335
Geb.AOK 20........... 4,184 ...................15,034 ....................4,587....................... 23,805
AOK Norwegen ............27 ........................71........................16............................114
OB Süd-West .........19,066.................. 66,066 ...................59,889 ......................145,021
OB Süd-Ost............ 8,241................... 27,259 ...................11,095 .......................46,595
OB West .............59,145.................. 196,134.................. 392,994 ......................648,273
Total ................227,156...................936,592...............1,034,415.....................2,198,143


Table V.
Feldheer Casualties 1 Sep 39-20 Apr 45 (Organizationabteilung d. Gen.Stb. d. Heer, 26 Apr 45, NARA T78, R414, F3189)
Losses in the Heer, Waffen SS, and Luftwaffe Ground Troops
...............................KIA ...............WIA................... MIA........................Total
Ostheer ..............1,005,413 ............3,992,062 ...............1,369,174 ...............6,366,649
Geb.AOK 20............ 16,395 .................60,515....................6,852.....................83,762
OB Süd-West..... ......48,750 ...............174,734 .................215,525....................439,009
OB Süd-Ost .............22,370 .................70,064...................24,620 ...................117,054
OB West ...............109,046...............382,776 .................772,460..................1,264,282
Other .....................9,248 ................28,826.....................6,120..................... 44,194
Total ................1,211,222 ..............4,708,977 ..............2,394,751..................8,314,950


Table VI.
Feldheer Casualties 22 Jun 41-31 Mar 45 (OKW KTB, Band IV.2, p. 1515-1516)
Losses in the Heer, Waffen SS, and Luftwaffe Ground Troops
..........................KIA.......................... WIA........................ MIA......................Total
Ostheer........... 984,816...................3,907,752 .................1,275,275 ......................6,167,843
Geb.AOK 20 .......16,391....................... 60,509 .......................6,852..........................83,752
OB Süd-West...... 46,805..................... 168,571.................... 208,239 .........................423,615
OB Süd-Ost...... .20,276 .......................63,098 ......................21,846 ........................105,220
OB West ..........80,719 .......................263,035 ....................502,061........................ 845,812
Total ..........1,149,007 ....................4,462,965................. 2,104,273........................7,716,245

Table VII
. Total Losses of the Wehrmacht (Gesamtausfaelle der Wehrmacht) by Year (1 Sep-31 Aug) as of 30 November 1944
(NARA T78, R414, F3184)

...............KIA .......DEAD.....UNK........EXE ........MIA.........PW........DIS .......DES
1939/1940
Heer........64,202.......12,159.......0 .......485........1,550........ 488......16,644........4
Marine ......3,021...........400.......0..........4..............3 .......1,393 .......151 ........0
Luft......... 6,480.........1,573 ......1 ........26 ........1,196 ........793......1,549 ........0

1940/1941
Heer........122,585....17,399........2 ......392 ........7,547.......1,222.....38,894 ........3
Marine........4,218......1,249........0 ........13 ............37........1,062 .......360.........0
Luftw..... ....1,631.....2,642........0........40 .........2,503.......1,857......3,948.........1

1941/1942
Heer ......422,311....31,921........9 .....1,394....... 47,047 ....11,002 .......8,818 .......22
Marine ......5,257 .....2,042........0 .......119 ...........144 .....1,172 ........2,968 ........7
Luftw.......17,842 .....4,269 ........2 .......135..........5,445 .....1,034 ......14,291 .......0

1942/1943
Heer .....374,084....56,571.......73 .......2,282.......287,357 ....43,547 ....98,987........230
Marine ....12,412......2,562.......0 ..........228..........2,983......2,087 ......2,491.........49
Luftw......31,117.....4,903 .......19 .........274.........50,005.....3,988 .....11,025.........13

1943/1944
Heer......459,476......39,700....139.....3,219.......764,411.....160,677 ...139,503........329
Marine.....14,368.......3,303....... 0 ......326........16,577.........3,268......3,403.........45
Luftw.......47,706.......4,482... ..25.......494.... ....12,739... ....16,577....15,226 ........18

1944/1945..
Heer ....111,406.......9,891........ 0 .........38.......190,817......25,164........26,262 ......5
Marine ....1,740 .........474........ 0.......... 38..... ..3,393.............9........1,011.........6
Lutw......15,758.........362.........0............6........42,01.......92,864........2,821.........0

Total
Heer ...1,554,066....298,369....223......7,810...1,298,729....242,100.... 379,108........593
Marine.....38,016.....10,030........0 ......728........23,217 .......8,988......10,384 ......107
Luftw.....130,534.....18,231... ...47.......975......113,907.......27,113......48,860 .......32
Total ..1,722,616....326,630.... .270....9,513....1,435,853......278,201....438,352 ......732


KEY:
KIA = killed through enemy action
Dead = dead through accident, sickness and suicide
UNK = dead to unknown causes
EXE = executed
MIA = missing in action and interned
PW = prisoner of war
DIS = discharged from the service
DES = deserter (still at large)

[RichTO90]

While it's not too late, may I recommend...

Did I do somthing to offend you Phylo or are you just getting carried away with it all?