German vs. Allied war-making potential

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Guaporense » 16 Apr 2010 18:25

mescal wrote:
Guaporense wrote:Germany was heavily bombed and was losing territory, with implied in the collapse of their trade bloc, and hence that their production was below potential.
I fail to understand the meaning of the word "potential" in this sentence.
Potential production is not actually achieved production, no problem with that.
I think that it is kinda obvious that it would be the output without allied "interference".

In the other hand, potential can mean many things. The output possible if they had abundant labor supply, or resources? Or infinite cognitive capacity? I meant the "interference sense".
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Ammunition per personnel

Post by Guaporense » 16 Apr 2010 18:57

In terms of ammunition per personnel, Germany made 320.5 million rounds of artillery and mortar ammunition, the USSR made 173.4 million rounds of artillery and mortar ammunition, the US made 227 million rounds of artillery ammo (I don't have data for mortar ammo, but I believe that their output was small). But Germany had 4.8 million men in the field army, the USSR had 6.5 million and the US had only 2.5 million.

So, in 1944, ammo per 100,000 field army personnel was 2.7 million rounds for the USSR, 6.7 million rounds for Germany and 9.1 million for the US. Soviet soldiers weren't in the best position in terms of ammo.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008 21:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Ammunition per personnel

Post by bf109 emil » 16 Apr 2010 19:17

Guaporense wrote:In terms of ammunition per personnel, Germany made 320.5 million rounds of artillery and mortar ammunition, the USSR made 173.4 million rounds of artillery and mortar ammunition, the US made 227 million rounds of artillery ammo (I don't have data for mortar ammo, but I believe that their output was small). But Germany had 4.8 million men in the field army, the USSR had 6.5 million and the US had only 2.5 million.

So, in 1944, ammo per 100,000 field army personnel was 2.7 million rounds for the USSR, 6.7 million rounds for Germany and 9.1 million for the US. Soviet soldiers weren't in the best position in terms of ammo.
unsure as to why these numbers made by Germany are assumed to have been issued to field army personnel.
Do you have sources for this?

as the majority of artillery especially 88 shells and 105 IIRC where used in home defense by the Luftwaffe and never made or destined to be used in the field by the Heer combating another army.

User avatar
LWD
Member
Posts: 8584
Joined: 21 Sep 2005 21:46
Location: Michigan

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by LWD » 16 Apr 2010 19:32

I suspect the majority of 120mm was also used within Germany in the AA role as well. Looks to me more like a function of demand than industrial limitations.

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008 21:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by bf109 emil » 16 Apr 2010 19:41

LWD wrote:I suspect the majority of 120mm was also used within Germany in the AA role as well. Looks to me more like a function of demand than industrial limitations.
correct and TY LWD, got my calibre mixed up. But simply any and all shells delivered to AA units would not be available to the Heer of fielding there armies in the speculation Guar' had proposed.

Jon G.
Member
Posts: 6647
Joined: 17 Feb 2004 01:12
Location: Europe

Re: Ammunition per personnel

Post by Jon G. » 16 Apr 2010 20:06

Guaporense wrote:...
So, in 1944, ammo per 100,000 field army personnel was 2.7 million rounds for the USSR, 6.7 million rounds for Germany and 9.1 million for the US. Soviet soldiers weren't in the best position in terms of ammo.
That is a perfect example of a GIGO calculation: pointless at best, misleading at worst. What, exactly, does the totality of ammunition produced divided by field army strength at a given point in time tell you?

1) How much ammunition do you think was expended by each of the countries you mention up to your arbitrarily selected point in time? Or are you seriously suggesting that the US, Germany and the USSR were just piling up ammunition until 1944?

2) How do you think this ammunition was distributed between air, sea and land forces for the warring countries you mention?

3) How was this ammunition distributed between strategic fronts?

4) How much ammuniton, produced outside the period of war you seem to be focussing on, was stockpiled by each country before they went to war?

5) How much ammunition - in casu LL supplies for the Soviets - was perchance transferred from one ammunition producing country to another ammunition consuming country?

User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Guaporense » 16 Apr 2010 20:28

what is gigo?

1- of course it is simplistic, I don't pretend to be precise, but it surely a measure of relative ammo availability.

2- Output of only army ammunition, for Germany, USSR and US.

3- It is annual output, not accumulated.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Re: Ammunition per personnel

Post by Guaporense » 16 Apr 2010 20:34

bf109 emil wrote:
Guaporense wrote:In terms of ammunition per personnel, Germany made 320.5 million rounds of artillery and mortar ammunition, the USSR made 173.4 million rounds of artillery and mortar ammunition, the US made 227 million rounds of artillery ammo (I don't have data for mortar ammo, but I believe that their output was small). But Germany had 4.8 million men in the field army, the USSR had 6.5 million and the US had only 2.5 million.

So, in 1944, ammo per 100,000 field army personnel was 2.7 million rounds for the USSR, 6.7 million rounds for Germany and 9.1 million for the US. Soviet soldiers weren't in the best position in terms of ammo.
unsure as to why these numbers made by Germany are assumed to have been issued to field army personnel.
Do you have sources for this?

as the majority of artillery especially 88 shells and 105 IIRC where used in home defense by the Luftwaffe and never made or destined to be used in the field by the Heer combating another army.
around 10% of Germany's ammo was consumed for the anti aircraft role. this includes the anti aircraft ammo for the army and ammo for the defense of the reich.
Last edited by Guaporense on 16 Apr 2010 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

User avatar
The_Enigma
Member
Posts: 2270
Joined: 14 Oct 2007 14:59
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by The_Enigma » 16 Apr 2010 20:35

Guaporense wrote:what is gigo?
You :milwink:

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008 21:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by bf109 emil » 16 Apr 2010 20:39

2- Output of only army ammunition, for Germany, USSR and US.
does the source you are taking these numbers from specifically say this ammo was for army usage or simply a total produced by Germany?

If this is simply a total production of artillery, then as posted earlier millions of 88 and 120mm shells would have never ended up in the army to be used in the field, but sent to Luftwaffe and AA batteries which fired tens of thousands of shells per Allied air strike both day and night, something which cannot be factored into a % used in the field, if and had these shells never arrived to combat an another army directly.
10% of Germany's ammo was consumed for the anti aircraft role. this includes the anti aircraft ammo for the army.
In what year and by what source as in 1943 Germany had more guns destined for AA and again in 1944 more flak batteries where established as the threat of the USAAF was now being established and even more so by late 1944/45 as the ability of the Luftwaffe to combat an allied airforce was helpless, Germany turned to increasing her AA. To simply state that Germany sent only a paltry 10% of all shells produced to AA batteries as a whole and for the entire war sounds fishy or lacking a reliable source relating the logistics sought by the Luftwaffe units against those of production!

User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Guaporense » 16 Apr 2010 20:41

you people cannot pronounce "guaporense"?
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

User avatar
Guaporense
Banned
Posts: 1866
Joined: 07 Oct 2009 02:35
Location: USA

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Guaporense » 16 Apr 2010 20:44

Emil, well, in 1944, second to Art's calculations, anti air ammo was 200,000 tons, while howitzer ammo was 900,000 tons. Total ammo was, second to overy's atlas third reich, 3,350,000 tons.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008 21:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by bf109 emil » 16 Apr 2010 20:58

Guaporense wrote:Emil, well, in 1944, second to Art's calculations, anti air ammo was 200,000 tons, while howitzer ammo was 900,000 tons. Total ammo was, second to overy's atlas third reich, 3,350,000 tons.
Total ammo as in artillery shells as discussed earlier or in ammo meaning all types or rounds including small arms and pistol calibre.

as this is not what i had in mind as earlier you posted...
In terms of ammunition per personnel, Germany made 320.5 million rounds of artillery and mortar ammunition, the USSR made 173.4 million rounds of artillery and mortar ammunition, the US made 227 million rounds of artillery ammo (I don't have data for mortar ammo, but I believe that their output was small). But Germany had 4.8 million men in the field army, the USSR had 6.5 million and the US had only 2.5 million.

So, in 1944, ammo per 100,000 field army personnel was 2.7 million rounds for the USSR, 6.7 million rounds for Germany and 9.1 million for the US. Soviet soldiers weren't in the best position in terms of ammo.
an assumed that simply dividing 320.5 million rounds into 48 (as per 100,000 field army personal) you attempted to conclude that Germany had 6.7 million rounds of artillery ammunition available for her Heer and to be used against another army. This can only be deemed as wrong as total Germany output was not deemed exclusively to be used by the Heer or field army, but must also reflect the hundreds of tens of thousands of shells Germany fired and used each Allied air attack and thus the amount available was never the quantity you stated as being used or available to field army personnel.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3673
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: German vs. Allied war-making potential

Post by Peter K » 16 Apr 2010 21:08

Guaporense, thanks for your data on German pre-war military financing.

Here some interesting data which compare German to Russian military potential:

http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/SovWarProd.html

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6365
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Ammunition per personnel

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Apr 2010 22:30

Guaporense wrote:around 10% of Germany's ammo was consumed for the anti aircraft role. this includes the anti aircraft ammo for the army and ammo for the defense of the reich.
Edward B Westermann in 'Flak, Germans Anti-Aircraft Defenses 1941-45' (Univ Press of Kansas)

3rd Quarter 1943 AA Ammo 20% of budget
4th Quarter 19%
1st Quarter 44 17%
2nd Quarter 16%
3rd Quarter 18%
4th Quarter 20%

Total of Wehrmacht budget allocated to Anti-Aircraft weapons in 1944 = 25%
By the fall of 1944 AA ammo consumption was 3.5 million 'heavy(over 70mm) and 12.5 million light per month.
Wastage(worn out) of 88mm guns was 380 a month in 1944 twice the 1943 rate.
In 1943 and 1944 HEAVY flak ammo accounted for 9% of total value.
In the last 6 months of the war AA ammunition production meant a decrease in munitions avalable for the Army.

Return to “Economy”