German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
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Svetlana Karlin
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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by Svetlana Karlin » 06 Sep 2010 21:35

LWD wrote:I'm not an expert but I'd suggest several things:
1) Soviet equipment was often less complex and built to looser tolerences.
2) The Soviets did have more raw resources and access to yet more.
3) I think you underestimate the effect of LL. While LL supplied equipment may not have been appearing in volume some stuff did start appearing as early as 41. Furthermore the promise of LL let the Soviets specialize in some areas because they could expect the west to fill in the gaps. This let them plan more efficiently. LL also supplied a lot of critical raw materials.
4) The Soviet worker knew that his life was on the line. This could be a very motivating factor. Furthermore the survival of Lenningrad and Moscow meant that he had some hope with the implication that what he was doing could make a real difference to the survival of him/her as well as family.
5 Note the him/her above. The Soviets made extensive use of the female portion of the labor pool. This greatly increased the number of available workers (and soldiers).
Here are my two cents on this. My grandfather was a chief Electric Engineer of and responsible for power supply in a division at ZIS in Moscow (now ZIL - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZiL) from October 1941 until the end of the war. He told us that:

1) Most of the workers at the factory in 1941-1942 were women, school-age teenagers and older men not eligible for the Army serivce. My grandfather was not drafted into the Army because of his very poor eyesight. The shortage of male workers/specialists was severe, but the people were very motivated to work. Besides, the food rations for workers were much better than for those who did not work.

2) The factory worked non-stop in three shifts. While the rank and file left for home after their shifts, the managers and educated specialists like my grandfather were required to be on duty 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They ate and slept at the factory. My grandfather recalled an incident when an unexploded aerial bomb got stuck in the roof. On the manufacturing floor they fenced off the area under it, but the rest of the floor kept on working. In the morning sappers came and removed the bomb. I don't know how long the factory worked in this 3-shift regime, but, apparently, it was so in 1941-1942.

3) In 1941 their chief output was assembled lend-lease trucks because most of the manufacturing had been evacuated. Along with assembling the trucks they set up production of domestic ZIS trucks in the Fall of 1941, but very simplified: only one headlight, simple plywood cabins, minimum complex molded/pressed exterior shell parts, etc. Things like driver's comfort/ergonomics were the last concern. The goal was to churn out as many as possible useable and simple to repair trucks.

I also know numerous stories when the evacuated factories were set up and running in mere weeks in new places East of Urals. Soviet people pushed the work hours/loads to the extremes because many people perceived it a matter of the nation's survival. Many workers had their husbands/brothers/sons at the front or relatives in the occupied territories, so it was a big motivating factor.

At the same time, Germans employed a lot of slave/forced labor at their factories, which made for a different morale. I've been doing a research on Rheinmetall Borsig in Berlin which employed many Ostarbeiters. A Russian former Ostarbeiterin recounted in her interview taken in late 90's how the girls at Borsig used to sabotage the production by being sloppy and mishandling the tools, which caused them to wear faster or break down. The supervisors couldn't keep track of everyone and everything.
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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by bf109 emil » 06 Sep 2010 23:27

guarpenese listed the following
Steel, thousands of tons
USSR: 8.070
Germany: 32.100
perhaps if we simply look at the production figures we have grandiose visions of a German military being amply supplied with over 400% production of steel from her Soviet counterparts and would assume this as to be a favorable figure as a dominance over Russia in/for fighting on the Eastern front...

IMHO the majority of the 8 million tons of Soviet steel went into arms production to combat Germany, so to might a lesser informed individual likewise assume this as the later for Germany, which simply isn't so...as only a paltry 8 million tons of the total 30 million produced by Germany went to the whole of her military or approx 26% of 1942's 30 million tons produced..even a lower figure if Guaprenese figures are closely accurate stating 32 million tons.... in FY 1942, Germany produced 30 million tons of steel - but only 8 million tons of that was directed towards military production efforts (airplanes, guns, munitions, supplies, tanks, etc.) source:A Germany-Soviet Military-Economic Comparison by Arvo L. Vecamer

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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by Guaporense » 07 Sep 2010 00:46

Well, Emil, in Germany about 15 million tons of steel were allocated to the military production in Greater Germany, second to Tooze, Wages of Destruction. These 8 million tons might refer only to the steel allocated to direct production of armaments, while the other 7 million tons refer to steel allocated in the construction of fortifications, industrial plant and capital goods for military use.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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bf109 emil
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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by bf109 emil » 07 Sep 2010 00:56

Guaporense wrote:Well, Emil, in Germany about 15 million tons of steel were allocated to the military production in Greater Germany, second to Tooze, Wages of Destruction. These 8 million tons might refer only to the steel allocated to direct production of armaments, while the other 7 million tons refer to steel allocated in the construction of fortifications, industrial plant and capital goods for military use.
hey i got no problems with this as i suspect the difference still remains that 8 million tons went to fighting forces and 7 went to infrastructure...nice, but unless hardly front lines units when comparing apples to apples...and still showing only a meager 25% of production went to combating the Soviets directly...

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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 07 Sep 2010 06:07

Linkar wrote:


2) The factory worked non-stop in three shifts. While the rank and file left for home after their shifts, the managers and educated specialists like my grandfather were required to be on duty 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They ate and slept at the factory. My grandfather recalled an incident when an unexploded aerial bomb got stuck in the roof. On the manufacturing floor they fenced off the area under it, but the rest of the floor kept on working. In the morning sappers came and removed the bomb. I don't know how long the factory worked in this 3-shift regime, but, apparently, it was so in 1941-1942.
I dont see why they could not have continued in three shifts through 1945. Locally here is a aluminum foundry that provided aircraft frame parts. The three shift regime continued through the entire war. I recall the workers there describing how at times extra production was required and the shifts would be expanded from eight hours each to ten or twelve. The teams from each shift working at extra tasks alongside the other shifts. I am unsure about specialists, but managers were expected to work extra hours everyday, and were on call when off shift as telephones were common in their homes.

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Svetlana Karlin
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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by Svetlana Karlin » 08 Sep 2010 17:59

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
I dont see why they could not have continued in three shifts through 1945. Locally here is a aluminum foundry that provided aircraft frame parts. The three shift regime continued through the entire war. I recall the workers there describing how at times extra production was required and the shifts would be expanded from eight hours each to ten or twelve. The teams from each shift working at extra tasks alongside the other shifts. I am unsure about specialists, but managers were expected to work extra hours everyday, and were on call when off shift as telephones were common in their homes.
Carl,

Very possible that ZiS operated in three shifts until the end of war. I just don't have the exact information. The stories I heard from my late Grandpa seemed to cover mostly 1941-1942, but that was the most extreme period. I guess things were more 'normal' closer to the end of the war - no air raids, already trained workforce, established manufacturing process, etc. Mass transit was a problem at the time, and the factory was on the outskirts of Moscow (now it has a subway station nearby which was built in 1943!). That explained the need for managers and important specialists to stay at the factory.
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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 09 Sep 2010 01:17

Linkar...I notice you post two locations in your info on the right. You must busy traveling. Whats the story with this?

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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by Jon G. » 09 Sep 2010 14:45

Art wrote:
Jon G. wrote: Don't worry, he is just cherry-picking figures to suit his misguided agenda. According to the figures from Jason Long's site, 59% of Soviet avgas was supplied via L-L, and 41% was produced domestically
Stirmvogel's figures are taken from this source:
http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/StatS ... 04.html#t6
in which nothing actually idicates that aviation gasoline number do inclide foreign deliveries. The table is called "Production of fuel". So 59% are under large question mark. The army reported consumption of 4 481,4 thousands ton of aviation fuel from 22 June 1941 to 1 June 1945, of which 2 998,4 thousands tons of high-octane and 1 483,0 thousands taon of low-octane fuel. Import deliveries for the army were 1170,1 thousands tons, of which 450,3 thousands were mixed with 668 thousands tons of Soviet-produed low-octane aviation fuel yeilding 1118,3 thousands of resulting product suitable for combat aircraft. Army stocks of aviation fuel increased from 537,6 thousands tons at the start of the war to 722,8 thousands by the end...
Thanks for the figures, Art, very illuminating. From the numbers you provide it seems that L-L deliveries of avgas were well below the 59% stated by Sturmvogel. Does the delivery figure you state (1170.1 thousand tons) pertain to all foreign-delivered avgas, or only to avgas delivered under L-L agreements? Could the discrepancy between the Sturmvogel figures and your figures be explained by avgas additives, rather than finished product, delivered under L-L auspices?
...Use of Eastern European (mostly Romanian) sources was considerable enough. Total 816,5 thousands tons were delivered for the Soviet Army: 82,8 thousands tons of aviation fuel, 615 - automotive, 98,3 - diesel fuel. All the figures are from a report on army rear serives activities of June 1946. In general leand-lease aviation fuel deliveries was quantitatively and qualitatively important, automotive - negligible.
Interesting to note that Romanian/other Eastern European deliveries caught up so quickly. I would have expected Romanian/later perhaps also Hungarian etc. oil wells to have been thoroughly destroyed and off-line for a long while once the Soviets took the territory, apparantly that wasn't the case.

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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by LWD » 09 Sep 2010 17:49

I've seen some accounts of LL avgas break out high octane avgas as most of the LL was such I believe. Could the Sturmvogel site have done this and not noted it properly?

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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by Svetlana Karlin » 10 Sep 2010 03:54

Carl Schwamberger wrote:Linkar...I notice you post two locations in your info on the right. You must busy traveling. Whats the story with this?
I'm mostly in the US now although I travel to Russia regularly. A few years ago it was the other way - I lived in Moscow and traveled to the US! I grew up in Moscow and lived there most of my life, though.
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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by CJK1990 » 11 Sep 2010 20:42

I don't mean to be ignorant, but I read through this and I still do not understand why Soviet production was so much higher in 1942.

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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by ljadw » 11 Sep 2010 21:37

higher than the Soviet production in 1941 ? Obvious;the war started (only) at 22 june 1941
higer than the German production in 1942?Obvious,the SU had more raw materials than Germany,the SU was not obliged to build U Boats,to produce a lot of A-A guns to defend its cities against air attacks .

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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by Paul_Atreides » 11 Sep 2010 23:24

ljadw wrote:higer than the German production in 1942? Obvious,the SU had more raw materials than Germany.
Hm, let's look at figures of 1942

USSR/Germany

Coal - 75,6/336 mln tons
Oil - 15,7/1,7 (+6,3 syntetic) mln tons
Steel melt - 8,1/28,7 mln tons
Pig-iron melt - 4,8/25,1 mln tons

Where is influence of raw materials?

And even the superiority in oil manufacture wasn't reflected in the superiority of consumption of fuel. In 1942 the Red Army consumed 2 662 thousands tons and the Wehrmacht - 4 410 thousands.
There is no waste, there are reserves (Slogan of the German Army in World Wars)

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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by Art » 12 Sep 2010 15:00

Germany also produced more aluminium and most chemicals.

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Re: German vs. Soviet production in 1942

Post by Art » 12 Sep 2010 15:38

Jon G. wrote: From the numbers you provide it seems that L-L deliveries of avgas were well below the 59% stated by Sturmvogel. Does the delivery figure you state (1170.1 thousand tons) pertain to all foreign-delivered avgas, or only to avgas delivered under L-L agreements?
It stands for all import gasoline delivered for the Army. The Navy and civil air fleet consumed gasoline as well, although apparently in smaller volumes. Then som number of oil products caould be recieved after 10 May 1945, that is beyond the timeframe covered by the aforementioned report.
Could the discrepancy between the Sturmvogel figures and your figures be explained by avgas additives, rather than finished product, delivered under L-L auspices?
Possible. According to Sokolov foreign deliveries of aviation fuel to the USSR were as follows:
Aviation gasoline from the USA - 628,4 thousands short tons
Light gasoline fractions from the USA - 732,3 thousands tons.
From the Abadan refinery (Iran) - 14,7 thousands tons of aviation gas and 902,1 thousands tons of light gas fractions
Aviation gas from the UK and Canadian refineries - 573 thousands tons.
Total 2850,5 thousands short tons or 2586 thousands metric tons. That is were J.Long took this number from, I guess.
Sokolov states that all virtually all import gasoline and gasoine fractions were used for mixing with domestic low-octane gasoline thus producing high-octane aviation gas, consequently all import numbers are actually included in the Soviet production. That is not entirely true, in fact only the smaller part of import gas (450 thousands tons of 1170,1 thousands from the report quoted above) was used for mixing. I don't know what was the situation with light fractions. What the figures of Soviet production mean is a great question. It's not clear whether they include gasoline produced through mixing with import components and production from import semi-finished components (light gas fractions mentioned above). As I see it, all low-octane gas consumed was Soviet, low-octane gas used for mixing was Soviet as well, finally a part of high-octane gas was produced in the USSR from Soviet oil. So the percantage of Soviet part in aviation gas balance must be higher than 40%.
Interesting to note that Romanian/other Eastern European deliveries caught up so quickly. I would have expected Romanian/later perhaps also Hungarian etc. oil wells to have been thoroughly destroyed and off-line for a long while once the Soviets took the territory, apparantly that wasn't the case.
As I understand in August 1944 Germany had little time or opportunity to thoroughly destroy Romanian oil industry. Hungarian oil wells were concentrated in the region of Nagykanisza in the westernmost part of the country. It was abandoned by the Axis not earlier than late March 1945, I expect that little oil was recieved from this source before the capitulation .

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