Material demands at Hendaye

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Urpå
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Material demands at Hendaye

#1

Post by Urpå » 27 Jul 2011, 10:12

Hey

Registered to the forum to ask a question about Hendaye meeting. So, does anyone have information on amounts of the material demands Franco made? I mean concrete numbers of armaments, supplies, raw materials etc.

The consensus seems that the material demands were so huge that those couldn't possibly be met and would've critically hit the German war economy (used as an excuse to stonewall Hitler). However, unlike the accurate info about the territorial demands, I've only managed to find genaralisations of the material part.

Thanks for any info.

Urpå



Urpå
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Re: Material demands at Hendaye

#3

Post by Urpå » 03 Aug 2011, 17:58

Alas, same generalisations regarding amounts of the various supplies I've read elsewhere. Something more specific anyone?

Jon G.
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Re: Material demands at Hendaye

#4

Post by Jon G. » 08 Aug 2011, 14:11


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Ironmachine
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Re: Material demands at Hendaye

#5

Post by Ironmachine » 10 Aug 2011, 08:23

I have never seen a detailed list of the material demands that Franco made at Hendaya. That's, IMHO, probably because the meeting was more about "politics" than "hard numbers", so the Spanish material demands at the time may not have been very detailed, being more like generalisations. In that case, the territorial demands would have been easier to explain.
See, for example, this:
A las dos de la mañana Franco y Serrano Suñér llegan al palacio de Ayete y durante una hora redactan una versión atenuada del protocolo -la llamaremos segunda versión- "que recogiera nuestras condiciones dilatorias y nuestras reivindicaciones concretas", según el ministro. Enrique Giménez Arnau, director general de prensa, actuó de mecanógrafo y muchos años después, en 1998, nos ha ofrecido un importante testimonio sobre el asunto. [...] En Ayete, Franco entregó al director general el segundo protocolo para que lo pusiera en limpio y así lo hizo. Se lo devolvió a Franco y se despidió; eran las cuatro de la madrugada. "En el documento, fechado pero sin firma ni antefirma se consignaban las peticiones de España, con mínimas condiciones previas muy generales, para una eventual intervención en el conflicto: suministros de material bélico (era el único punto relativamente detallado) ayuda económica y garantía de abastecimientos de artículos básicos, entre ellos combustibles. Además se reivindicaba Gibraltar y se formulaban reclamaciones territoriales en el norte de Africa. No era un proyecto de tratado ni tampoco incluia compromisos. Parecía un resumen de lo expuesto por Franco a los alemanes. El memorando apenas tenía puntos de contacto con un borrador alemán del Convenio de Hendaya, supuesta adhesión de España al pacto tripartito de 27 de septiembre de 1940, publicado sin firma alguna por los norteamericanos en 1960 e inexistente en el registro de tratados del Ministerio de Asuntos Exteriores. Supe después que el documento fue muy mal acogido por los alemanes y que se trabajó en otro".
http://www.galeon.com/razonespanola/r105-hit.htm

My translation:
At two o'clock [after the Hendaye meeting] Franco and Serrano Suñer arrived at the Ayete palace for an hour and write an attenuated version of the protocol -we will call it second version-"to show our delaying conditions and our specific demands," the minister said. Enrique Giménez Arnau, director general of the press, acted as a typist and many years later, in 1998, has given us an important testimony on the matter. [...] In Ayete, Franco gave him the second protocol to put it in clean and he did. He returned it to Franco and said goodbye, it was four in the morning. "In the document, with date but but not signature or antefirma, were the Spanish demands, with very general minimum preconditions for a possible intervention in the conflict, supplies of war material (it was only the only relatively detailed point), economic aid and assurance of supplies of basic commodities, including fuels. It also claimed Gibraltar and set out territorial claims in North Africa. It was not a draft treaty nor included commitments. It seemed a summary of the statement made by Franco to the Germans. The memorandum had almost no points of contact with a German draft of the Hendaye Convention, Spain's alleged adherence to the Tripartite Pact of 27 September 1940, published without signature by the Americans in 1960 and nonexistent in the registration of treaties of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I knew afterwards that the document was very badly received by the Germans who worked in another." Giménez Arnau coincides with the baron Torres Franco in Hendaye was the firm intention that Spain entered the war and believes that he transcribed the memo is a clear proof.

As you can see here, it seems that the material demands were not very detailed, something logical because it was a matter to be be discussed in detail by experts after Spain agrees to join the Axis.

However, if you want just an idea of what could have been demanded/needed by Spain "if", there are some details I can give you if you are interested.

Regards.

Urpå
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Re: Material demands at Hendaye

#6

Post by Urpå » 13 Aug 2011, 13:30

Much obliged. Actually found numbers regarding grain from one of the links. (A Pre-Hendaye meeting between Ciano & Hitler reqarding Spain)
Ironmachine wrote:I have never seen a detailed list of the material demands that Franco made at Hendaya. That's, IMHO, probably because the meeting was more about "politics" than "hard numbers", so the Spanish material demands at the time may not have been very detailed, being more like generalisations. In that case, the territorial demands would have been easier to explain.
I got the same impression about politics vs. numbers but I was wondering if something had been mentioned in pre-Hendaye discussions or perhaps scholar/military historian/somesuch had later done some kind of educated estimates.
Ironmachine wrote:However, if you want just an idea of what could have been demanded/needed by Spain "if", there are some details I can give you if you are interested.
Please do. I would be very interested since my own 'expertise' rather limited.


This one came from Jon.G's link: (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/sp07.asp)

1. Germany is to deliver for the coming year 400,000-700,000 tons of grain;
2. Germany is to deliver all the fuel;
3. Germany is to deliver the lacking equipment for the Army;
4. Germany is to put up artillery, airplanes, as well as special weapons and special troops for the conquest of Gibraltar;
5. Germany is to hand over all of Morocco and besides that, Oran, and is to help her get a border revision in the west of Rio de Oro;
6. Spain is to promise to Germany, in return, her friendship.

Can't say what 'all the fuel' means but considering Germany is already streched with only Ploesti/smaller wells/synths, doubt much could be provided. Definetly not after Barbarossa assuming that will still be an '41 objective if Spain joins.
'Lacking equipment': AFAIK Spanish army had the small arms but not much heavy stuff. Maybe they could lob some of the French war loot? How many divisions worth would need equipment?
Hitler apparently proposed Stukas to guard the coastline so few squadrons of those at least... fair amount of heavier tubearty batteries as well.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Material demands at Hendaye

#7

Post by Ironmachine » 16 Aug 2011, 08:20

As promised, here are some bits of information about the Spanish material demands:

From Franco and Hitler: Spain, Germany, and World War II by Stanley G. Payne:
[This is about August 1940] The Ministry of Economics in Madrid drew up a list of the economic assistance that Spain would need to enter the war and survive a total British blockade. The volume was enormous: 400,000 tons of gasoline, 500,000 tons of coal and other energy supplies, 200,000 tons of wheat, 100,000 tons of cottons, and large amounts of fertilizer, as well as lesser amounts of a long list of other items.
In issue 279 of the Spanish Armas magazine, there is an article that talks about a report on available equipment and military needs made based on information provided by the Army High Command that was supposedly taken by Franco to Hendaya (though whether or not it was shown to the Germans I don't know), in which there are the following requests for military material in case of entering the war: 2,000 trucks, 200 tanks, 40 Ju-88 aircraft, 100 x 155mm guns with 1,000 rounds per gun, 100 x 210-220mm howitzers with 1,000 rounds per gun, supplies of gasoline, nitro products, toluene and eventually of TNT. However, given the given the amounts and types of material requested, I think this is just a list of material for Operation C. For Spain entering the war, much more help would have been necessary.

Again from Franco and Hitler: Spain, Germany, and World War II Escrito por Stanley G. Payne
After Stohrer presented this message to Franco on the 8th [February 1941]
[...]
He [Franco] promised a complete reply after his inminent meeting with Mussolini, but in the meantime had just sent off the longest list of Spain's needs that the German government had received yet. This one specified not 100,000 but a million tons of grain, 16,000 boxcars of food and strategic goods, and an additional small navy - two cruisers, thirteen destroyers and four submarines- to protect against the British fleet.
Hope that helps.

John T
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Re: Material demands at Hendaye

#8

Post by John T » 16 Aug 2011, 22:20

From
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/wwii/sp02.asp
2. Making available military and other assistance required for carrying on the war.

The memorandum of Admiral Canaris enclosed here [1] gives detailed information regarding the extent of military assistance apparently necessary.
But Canaris memorandum is not enclosed there or in the other major source for German diplomacy during the war:

http://dfg-viewer.de/show/?set%5Bimage% ... Bstyle%5D=


So canaris obviously got a document with a list that I assume, was too detailed to be included,
(or did the Germans consider it too unrealistic ?)


And a German assesment of the Spanish army can be found here and the next pages
http://dfg-viewer.de/show/?set%5Bimage ... 1_mets.xml


Cheers
/John T.
Last edited by John T on 16 Aug 2011, 22:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Ironmachine
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Re: Material demands at Hendaye

#9

Post by Ironmachine » 16 Aug 2011, 22:29

Urpå wrote:'Lacking equipment': AFAIK Spanish army had the small arms but not much heavy stuff. Maybe they could lob some of the French war loot? How many divisions worth would need equipment?
The Spanish Navy was negligible, the Air Force was barely adequate for a "first battle" but had no reserves at all.
The existing divisions of the Army had more or less the required equipment, though they were somewhat "light" in artillery and anti-aircraft and anti-tank artillery were weak. However, the Spanish plans for war were to duplicate the number of divisions (that would amount to about 20 new divisions), and there were not weapons to equip the new units.
Adding french weapons would have been a mixed blessing. Without doubt it would have improved the fighting power of the units, but it would have added a new logistic problem to an Army that already suffered from having to many different weapon models from different countries.
Regards.

pugsville
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Re: Material demands at Hendaye

#10

Post by pugsville » 17 Aug 2012, 14:32

found some figures while looking around the net -

Spanish demands in 1940

400,000 tons gasoline
200,000 coal fuel oil
600,000 coal wheat
200,000 tons coal

(other stuff rubber etc which I cant find figures for)

source
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... 5rsZuZ8SnA

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Ironmachine
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Re: Material demands at Hendaye

#11

Post by Ironmachine » 19 Aug 2012, 18:37

This may be of interest here. It comes from the book Germany and the Second World War, by Gerhard Schreiber, Bernd Stegemann and Detlef Vogel.
These are not Spanish demands, but German estimations in August 1940 of Spanish needs (so, if ever formalized, Spanish demands would probably have been higher):
...the German foreign ministry, to be prepared for all eventualities, gave instructions that Spain's real requirements should be investigated, but without attracting attention. Initial investigations led to the following findings. In order to satisfy civilian and military needs even temporarily Spain needed 400,000t. of motor-fuel annually. With strict rationing 600,000 to 700,000t. of wheat would be needed until the next harvest. Added to this were 200,000t. of coal, at least 100,000t. of diesel oil, 200,000t. of fuel-oil and other mineral fuels, 40,000t. of lubricating oil, 20,000t. of petroleum, 35,000t. of manganese ore, 100,000 to 150,000t. of scrap, 100,000t. of paper pulp, 25,000t. of raw rubber, 100,000t. of cotton, 48,000t. of wood pulp, 55,000t. of jute and Manila hemp, 30,000t. of peanut seed, and 625,000t. of nitrogen fertilizer; data on delivery times or possible minimun quantities are not available.

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