German production kept increasing

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darringm
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German production kept increasing

#1

Post by darringm » 02 Feb 2012, 08:54

german productin kept inceasing each year. despite the heavy bombing of germany and the allied heavy bombers suffered from thier highest personal casualties

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Marcus
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Re: German production kept increasing

#2

Post by Marcus » 02 Feb 2012, 09:00

darringm,

Again please post in the correct section, the "WW2 in general" is not the section to post everything, only the few issues that cover several different aspects of the war which for example threads on German oil production or Russian supply issues does not.

Further noncomplying posts will be locked.

/Marcus


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sunbury2
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Re: German production kept increasing

#3

Post by sunbury2 » 03 Feb 2012, 03:32

duplicate post removed
Last edited by sunbury2 on 03 Feb 2012, 03:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German production kept increasing

#4

Post by sunbury2 » 03 Feb 2012, 03:33

darringm wrote:german productin kept inceasing each year. despite the heavy bombing of germany and the allied heavy bombers suffered from thier highest personal casualties
Nazi Germany used slave labour to keep production running. darringmr never forget that tens of thousands of slaves died under SS control to meet that production level. To take pride in that, is most biazzre.

A simple example, over 25,000 slaves died so von Braun could make his V 2 wonder weapon. http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/mittel.html.

Speer tried to present himself as the "good Nazi" after his release from prison in the 1960's. He denied any knowledge of the use of slaves. It wasn't until his death that proof was found that he was fully aware that slaves were used and were killed.


(edited once for my typo's and dd a link)

Jon G.
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Re: German production kept increasing

#5

Post by Jon G. » 03 Feb 2012, 07:02

This thread would benefit greatly from the addition of data.

Two other threads with similar subjects:

Was Germany's War Effort Badly Run?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&t=147250

German Armament Production
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&t=124148

...take heed, both of the above thread are bristling with the data which this thread sorely lacks.

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Re: German production kept increasing

#6

Post by michael mills » 15 Feb 2012, 08:05

A simple example, over 25,000 slaves died so Von Braum could make his V2 wonder weapon.
That is dealt with in detail in a book by Michael Thad Allen;

"The business of genocide : the SS, slave labor, and the concentration camps".

Allen shows that the death rate of the prisoner labour force varied enormously depending on the type of work they did. The less skilled the work, the more expendable the work force, and the higher the death rate.

The prisoner work force that actually assembled the A-4 rockets experienced a very low death rate, since their work was very valuable.

By contrast, the prisoner work force that excavated the tunnels to which the rocket construction was transferred after the raids on Peenemünde had a very high death rate, due to the dirty and dangerous nature of the work. Even within that work force, the death rate was highest among the workers doing the least skilled work, digging and carrying the rock, while the more skilled had a much lower death rate.

In fact, the work force that constructed the underground rocket and jet fighter factories included both normal civilian and prisoner labour. The civilian work force did not expereience an abnormally death rate at all.

It was not the actual construction of the rockets that caused a high death rate. While the construction was being carried out at Peenemünde there was no abnormal death rate. It was only the need to move construction underground, and the concomitant need to excavate large tunnels for the factories that resulted in a large mortality among the workers doing the excavation.

If the rocket assembly could have continued to be carried out at normal factories above ground, there would have been a minimal death rate among the prisoner component of the work force, and there would be nothing to berate Von Braun for.

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Re: German production kept increasing

#7

Post by Hanny » 15 Feb 2012, 15:01

http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/mittel.html

Estimates put the number of prisoners used by the Germans for V 2 production at - Mittelbau at more than 60,000. Over 25,000 of these were killed either by beatings, starvation, and sickness in the complex, or by the brutal efforts of the SS to relocate them before the Americans arrived in April, 1945. We now know that many of the most shocking “concentration camp pictures” that are seared into our common consciousness from this era were taken by U.S. troops as they entered the Mittelbau camps.

http://www.ww2museums.com/article/1287/ ... bensee.htm
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Re: German production kept increasing

#8

Post by michael mills » 15 Feb 2012, 15:08

Estimates put the number of prisoners used by the Germans for V 2 production at - Mittelbau at more than 60,000.
No, only a small number were used the for the manufacture and assembly of the A 4 rocket.

The vast majority of the 60,000 were employed in the excavation of the vast tunnels where the A 4 production facilities were relocated after the destruction of the Peenemünde site by Allied bombing.

Very few of the prisoners employed on the actual production of the rockets died. The mass mortality occurred among the prisoners doing the excavating, due to the dirty and dangerous nature of the work, and the extremely poor conditions.

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Re: German production kept increasing

#9

Post by Hanny » 15 Feb 2012, 16:16

No, only a small number were used the for the manufacture and assembly of the A 4 rocket.
factually incorrect. Your refering to the electronics compements done by skilled techs. http://www.v2platform.nl/book/production.html

The vast majority of the 60,000 were employed in the excavation of the vast tunnels where the A 4 production facilities were relocated after the destruction of the Peenemünde site by Allied bombing.
Again fact free, as indicated by both link one and link two.*
Very few of the prisoners employed on the actual production of the rockets died. The mass mortality occurred among the prisoners doing the excavating, due to the dirty and dangerous nature of the work, and the extremely poor conditions.
Contradicts the links i posted, and every book on the subject i have read, ( Evans, http://www.amazon.com/Third-Reich-Power ... 0143037900 for instance or http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... h2javKZkAg orhttp://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/v2rrocket.htm ),which all state that more died in V 2 production than the casulaties they inflicted, break it down to 8k in construction of the facilties, leaving 17k from production.

You appear to eattemting a distinction that has no merit in estimatting loss of slave labour lives in V 2 production.

* Since i did not make clear how the subject is taught.
US Air force Museum
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsh ... sp?id=8092

The Nazis used forced labor to build V-weapons and an estimated 20,000 people died producing them in brutal work-camp conditions.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsh ... sp?id=8093
Some 60,000 prisoners -- Russians, Poles, French, Germans, Czechs, Hungarian Jews, Gypsies, Italians, Belgians, Yugoslavs, Dutch and others -- labored to build V-weapons. Twenty thousand of them died in the Mittelwerk's miserable conditions in about a year and a half, from the start of work in autumn 1943 to the end of the war in spring 1945

US edu which you disagreed and contradicted first time around.
http://www.dora.uah.edu/history.html
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Re: German production kept increasing

#10

Post by LWD » 15 Feb 2012, 20:21

darringm wrote:german productin kept inceasing each year. despite the heavy bombing of germany and the allied heavy bombers suffered from thier highest personal casualties
Is there a point to this? The final part isn't all that coherent either.

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Re: German production kept increasing

#11

Post by michael mills » 15 Feb 2012, 23:03

Hanny appears nopt to have fully understood the content of the sources that he has posted.

In his first source, we find this statement:

http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/mittel.html
There were also many construction kommando, working mostly (after early 1944) on projects not tied directly to the V 2. Prisoners are reported to have been desperate to join the specialist groups, since transport or construction workers had to labor under incredible physical burdens and were beaten more viciously by their SS and prisoner guards. As a result, they were used up much more rapidly than the specialists—the construction assignments killed prisoners more surely than any others.
That bears out what I wrote; it was the excavation of the tunnels to which the rocket production was transferred that caused the high mortality, rather than the manufacture of the rockets themselves.


That source also contains this statement:
It is also estimated that of the 60,000+ detainees employed in and around the Mittelbau complex over a 20-month period, 26,500 did not survive. (Estimates of the total number of prisoners in the complex at range between 40,000 and 64,000). Sellier attributes 15,500 of these deaths to the camps or to “transports”, and 11,000 to the period in April, 1945 when the camps were evacuated by the SS in the face of the American advance.
Thus, only 15,500 deaths occurred in an around the Mittelbau complex itself. As stated, the great majority of those were incurred in construction work, in particular in the excavation of the underground factories, a particularly dangerous task performed with minimal concern for safety.

As I wrote, only a small number of the 60,000 prisoners employed in and around the Mittlebau complex were actually involved in the assembly of the rockets:
Information provided by Dr. Jens-Christian Wagner indicates that once the V 2 production lines were running at their intended levels (by June, 1944) there were roughly 2,500 “free” workers and 5,000 prisoners employed in the Mittelwerk tunnels. Wagner also makes the case that the primary product of the Mittelbau complex was not weapons at all, but death itself—the death of the thousands of prisoners involved with Mittelbau (but primarily with its construction).
As is seen, only about 5,000 prisoners worked on the actual production of the rockets. The great majority were employed on building the underground factories, and that is where the mortality occurred, as the above passage clearly states.

Hanny also referred to this source:

http://www.ww2museums.com/article/1287/ ... bensee.htm

However, that source says nothing about deaths incurred in the production of the A 4 rockets. In fact, it does not say that prisoners from Ebensee were employed on rocket production at all, only that they were employed on constructing the tunnels where the rocket production was to be performed:
The main purpose of Ebensee was to provide slave labour for the construction of the enormous underground tunnels which were to be used for research purposes and the development of the A 9/A 10 Interkontinentalrakete (intercontinental rocket, V 2). The original plan had to be given up as other productions of military importance were assigned a higher priority. Those parts of the tunnels, however, that had already been finished were used for fuel production (Tunnel A) and the manufacturing of motor parts for tanks and lorries of the Steyr-Daimler-Puch Werke and the Nibelungen Werke (Tunnel B). The production of fuel from crude oil started within the framework of the Geilenberg programme on 4 February 1945.
In all, 7.6 kilometers of underground facilities were built by camp inmates within about 16 months.
I adjure Hanny to read more carefully the sources that he posts in support of his mistaken claims.

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Re: German production kept increasing

#12

Post by Hanny » 16 Feb 2012, 00:28

I adjure Revionists to not pollute the net with crap that contradicts what is used to teach students who do want to know what occured Had you bothered to read those links, you would have found you have contradicted their content, take your denial to Stormfront where it will be apreciated.
It was not the actual construction of the rockets that caused a high death rate. While the construction was being carried out at Peenemünde there was no abnormal death rate. It was only the need to move construction underground, and the concomitant need to excavate large tunnels for the factories that resulted in a large mortality among the workers doing the excavation.

If the rocket assembly could have continued to be carried out at normal factories above ground, there would have been a minimal death rate among the prisoner component of the work force, and there would be nothing to berate Von Braun for.
Denial of V2 production death rate during 43. Denial that the death rate in the construction of facilities is part of production. Denial of Reich policy of work to death. Denial of actual death rates during assembly of V2, hangings of the workforce alone were on a massive scale, and one part of why SS were convicted.http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/2222-ps.asp
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10007320
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Re: German production kept increasing

#13

Post by Jon G. » 16 Feb 2012, 00:43

Please avoid personal remarks about other members in your posts, thank you.

michael mills
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Re: German production kept increasing

#14

Post by michael mills » 16 Feb 2012, 02:41

Denial of actual death rates during assembly of V 2, hangings of the workforce alone were on a massive scale, and one part of why SS were convicted
The source referenced does not really bear that out.
During the period of construction of the camp at Dora no housing facilities were present. Prisoners for three months were required to sleep in the tunnels in which they worked. Many of them died from respiratory diseases contracted in the damp tunnels, and others died of heart ailments due to the under ground pressure (Exhibits A, A-1, TT, UU, CCC, & EEE). They were permitted to leave the tunnels during this period but once a week, and then only for roll call which lasted from one to three hours.

Transport was the name given to movements, whether they were made by vehicle or on foot, to the transfer of prisoners from one installation to another. When travel was by rail, groups numbering as high as 130 were placed in cattle and freight cars and during the inclement weather were given no extra clothing (Exhibits A, Q, GG, HH, and EEE). Of one group of 4,500 men and 500 women who were moved from Monowitz to Nordhausen in January 1945, a trip lasting approximately eight days, only twice were the passengers given food, at which times each was given one-half loaf of bread and 106 grams of meat. Upon arrival at Mittelbeau in the Nordhausen area, between 1,000 and 1,300 of the travelers were dead (Exhibits A-1, & Q). On the 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th of March 1945, 2,000 prisoners were taken from Nordhausen to a so-called Red Cross Camp near Bolkenberg. They travelled by wagon and on foot, and were given three days food for the ten day trip. 1,000 of the 2,000 died within three days (Exhibit A). Of 1,600 prisoners who came to Bolke Kaserene from Ellrich 250 died within three days (Exhibit A). Approximately 100 prisoners a day, suffering from malnutrition, tuberculosis, etc., were shipped from Dora to Bolke Kaserene to be "hospitalized" (Exhibit A 1). As the Allied troops neared the vicinity of the camps, evacuation of the prisoners was attempted by the use of the so-called transports, and as transportation by rail became impossible due to tactical operations, prisoners were in some instances released and in other instances removed from their transports and taken to areas, there to be murdered by their overseers (Exhibits DDD, FFF, GGG, HHH, & III).
As the above shows, the high mortality occurred during the building of the camp, and during the transport of prisoners from one camp to another.

The only mention of deaths among the workforce actually building the rockets relates to executions for sabotage. But such a punishment for a specific hostile act, while harsh, is not unreasonable. A total of 203 hangings is mentioned in the article referenced, which is not outrageous in a prisoner workforce of 5,000, particularly if there was a high level of sabotage by those priosners, as seems to have been the case.

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Re: German production kept increasing

#15

Post by Hanny » 16 Feb 2012, 12:23

You have contradicted every work on the subject including Allens.


More denial, and contradiction of this sites use of testomany of SS docters at the camp in other threads, while c7/8k died in construction of the facilities ( most sent for extermination rather than died in construction), this you fabricate to not be part of the production process and contradict every work on the subject, you then pretend the rest of the camps/factories deaths that are a far larger number are now a smaller number than this.

You also ignore what i link

:The Human Cost
*
The number of prisoner workers at Dora was about 7,000 in October, 1943 and rose to over 12,000 in January, 1944. By February, 1945 there more than 19,000 inmates were reported in the camp. As other Mittelbau construction projects accelerated, the prisoner population of Dora subcamps swelled as well, going from some 15,000 in September, 1944 to over 20,000 in March, 1945.
Reporting from the chillingly detailed records kept by the SS, Andre Sellier gives us more precise numbers of detainees and worker deaths. Between the end of August, 1943, and the beginning of April, 1944, he says, 17,535 detainees arrived at Dora.

Since the reported level of prisoner manpower at the beginning of April was only 11,653—5,882 persons had disappeared over these seven months. Of these, 2,882 are known to have died on the job and been incinerated in the ovens at Buchenwald (the SS did not construct a separate crematorium at Dora until later), and some 3,000 had left Dora on transports to other camps. Such “transported” workers were usually too sick to attend the roll calls for work detail and were dying a slow death. The transport was usually equivalent to a death sentence.


Images de Dora
Le Maner & Sellier
-
The Mittelwerk V 2 factory produced some 4,575 V 2s between August, 1944 and March, 1945—the period in which these rockets were headed for firing batterys (as opposed, earlier on, to development testing). It is also estimated that of the 60,000+ detainees employed in and around the Mittelbau complex over a 20-month period, 26,500 did not survive. (Estimates of the total number of prisoners in the complex at range between 40,000 and 64,000). Sellier attributes 15,500 of these deaths to the camps or to “transports”, and 11,000 to the period in April, 1945 when the camps were evacuated by the SS in the face of the American advance. This evacuation was especially barbaric. The SS shot prisoners, herded them into barns and burned them alive, left them to die if they were too sick to walk, or made them part of walking or rail convoys headed to other concentration camps. (It was at this time that the Boelcke Kaserne, a barracks in Nordhausen later to be discovered by U.S. troops, became an SS dumping ground for prisoners from several camps who were too sick to transport.
It is a little known truth that more people died manufacturing the V 2 than were killed by its blast. Each operational V 2 to come off the Mittelwerk line consumed about six human lives

From which 2,882 died in construction, and the rest were sent for extermination as now to unfit for work, compared to 2000 deaths a month in 45, and a further 1000 from mid 44 to 45, gives a ratio of,c1:3.

80 Machine gunned to death for asking for better treatement is not harsh, as death was the purpose of the inmates, on 1100 cals day, working in 90% humidity for 12 hours, SS Doctor at the camp got convicted.

203 hangings is 4% of 5000 and occured in very late 44 and 45, ( seperate from summary execution or death from interogation etc) 6 months of mid 1944 saw 5000 workers at any point in time, lose 1000 to death, excludding those sent for extermination as to ill to work, that is, during final assembly. Not HARSH, NOT UNREASONABLE, BUT PLANNED EXTERMINATION. Summarly e3xecution was commonplace, In 45 2000 a month died to produce 690 V2.`s.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... atbASyuiiw

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/buchen ... 40395.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LDEo ... te&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=70Wt ... te&f=false
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