Tooze's Wages of Destruction : An Inquiry

[stg 44]

A few other subjects pertaining to the topic:

The effectiveness of the arms industry in Germany, United States, Britain et al to create jobs

In each during wartime it was about 100% employment. In Germany there were labor shortages pre-war due to the vast amount of mobilization and in fact in all of the others IIRC there were some labor shortages. All used POW labor in some field, for the allies IIRC it was mostly farming and repair of damaged housing.

Military spending and opportunity cost in the combatant nations

The opportunity cost was that it took away from civilian spending and actually growing the economy. After the war all nations had a sharp collapse in production and a spike in unemployment, in Germany because of the lack of existence of the nation, but in the Soviet Union there were labor shortages, which were partially made up by the Axis POWs. Germany threw away chances pre-war to become a major exporter of goods if Schacht's policies were followed. It would not have totally saved Germany from the Great Depression, but would have mitigated its effects somewhat.
Check out "A Low Dishonest Decade" for details about the international trade system in Europe in the 1930's.

Investment in the Arms industry in World War 2

Germany spent huge sums in her arms industry, dwarfing the British and French, but that was mainly because she had to create an arms industry from scratch. British and French war material purchases helped the US convert to a war footing prior to Pearl Harbor. I'd need to know specifically what you're looking for to give details.

Military research and development in World War 2

Check out:
http://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Resear ... 0710313403
http://www.merriam-press.com/germanrese ... warii.aspx

Military-related inflation in the civilian as well as military sector

Can't help you there.

Foreign military sales

I just have various anecdotal sources on that. Germany prevented its industry from selling abroad in the late 1930's, though they were involved in China and Japan.

The economic conversion process post- World War 2

Not to knowledgable there.

The military budget making process in the World War 2 years

Again, havent' seen much work dedicated to that subject.

Weapons procurement before, during and after the war

Haven't focused on that. You might need to find books that focus on individual nation's services to get that info:
for instance "The Paladins: a Social history of the RAF" mentions some of it.

[ljadw]

A low dishonest decade ,although it is giving good informations,is written from a biased marxist POV
It also is wrong to say that Germany was preventing its industry at the end of the thirties to sell abroad,thus to export .
Even during the war,the German industry was selling abroad .
See :Export or dy:Foreign trade in the Third Reich .
From:a low dishonest decade :the Germans exported (thus were selling) to the US,150 million of RM in 1938.

[stg 44]

A low dishonest decade ,although it is giving good informations,is written from a biased marxist POV

I cited it for the information contained in it, not the perspective. It is somewhat jarring, but does have interesting trade date.
Also the MFGA history of WW2 does have some information about prewar trade, but only as it related to Hitler's growing influence in South-Eastern Europe.

It also is wrong to say that Germany was preventing its industry at the end of the thirties to sell abroad,thus to export .

Military industry was restricted heavily in selling abroad, though this mainly pertains to the military aircraft industry and machine guns and artillery were not as technology sensitive items.

[ljadw]

About the German pré war exports:these were mainly oriented on western Europe(Britain not included)
1936
1 Netherlands
2 France
3 Italy
4 Sweden
5 Switserland
1940
1Italy
2)Netherlands
3) Sweden
4)Romania
5)Soviet-Union
1943
1)Romania
2)Italy
3)Hungary
4)France
5 )General Gouvernement
While at the end of the 1930's,the German economic influence in South-Eastern Europe was increasing,the influence of this area still was minor .
The source is :
The legacy of fortress Euriope
Evidence of trade diversion from Nazi'Germany's confidential wartime foreign trade statistics
P7

[Cannae]

A few other subjects pertaining to the topic:

The effectiveness of the arms industry in Germany, United States, Britain et al to create jobs

In each during wartime it was about 100% employment. In Germany there were labor shortages pre-war due to the vast amount of mobilization and in fact in all of the others IIRC there were some labor shortages. All used POW labor in some field, for the allies IIRC it was mostly farming and repair of damaged housing.

Military spending and opportunity cost in the combatant nations

The opportunity cost was that it took away from civilian spending and actually growing the economy. After the war all nations had a sharp collapse in production and a spike in unemployment, in Germany because of the lack of existence of the nation, but in the Soviet Union there were labor shortages, which were partially made up by the Axis POWs. Germany threw away chances pre-war to become a major exporter of goods if Schacht's policies were followed. It would not have totally saved Germany from the Great Depression, but would have mitigated its effects somewhat.
Check out "A Low Dishonest Decade" for details about the international trade system in Europe in the 1930's.

Investment in the Arms industry in World War 2

Germany spent huge sums in her arms industry, dwarfing the British and French, but that was mainly because she had to create an arms industry from scratch. British and French war material purchases helped the US convert to a war footing prior to Pearl Harbor. I'd need to know specifically what you're looking for to give details.

Military research and development in World War 2

Check out:
http://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Resear ... 0710313403
http://www.merriam-press.com/germanrese ... warii.aspx

Military-related inflation in the civilian as well as military sector

Can't help you there.

Foreign military sales

I just have various anecdotal sources on that. Germany prevented its industry from selling abroad in the late 1930's, though they were involved in China and Japan.

The economic conversion process post- World War 2

Not to knowledgable there.

The military budget making process in the World War 2 years

Again, havent' seen much work dedicated to that subject.

Weapons procurement before, during and after the war

Haven't focused on that. You might need to find books that focus on individual nation's services to get that info:
for instance "The Paladins: a Social history of the RAF" mentions some of it.

In reply to your post,

Do you have works dealing with the arms industry for each nation? To be more specific, on the businesses in the arms industry and the competition among them? Also, the investments in the arms industry?

[stg 44]

Not really. I have some for Germany though:
Arming the Luftwaffe by Edward Homze
You should check out the MFGA "Germany and the Second World War" for huge amounts of economic, political, social, and military information

[Qvist]

Hi Cannae . Tooze's contribution was in challenging the widely held belief that the German economy was in some way mismanaged prior to Speer.'

Tooze fails in that regard. The German economy was heavily mismanaged prior to Speer and wasn't particularly efficient after Speer's arrival either.
Tooze does prove that there wasn't slack to the German economy in the civilian sector, i.e. total war in 1943 as announced by Goebbels was propaganda, as in prewar 1939 the Germans had less slack than the British had in 1943.
But this was already proved by Overy years earlier in his works on the German war economy. Tooze 'created' a belief to refute to sell books, not actually address a problem in economic history of WW2.

Really? And your amazing research to refute Tooze is where to be found? Or do you prefer to rely purely on assertion?

[Qvist]

His intent was to show how badly the economy was run and part of that was Speer was not really responsible for the growth in production.

Really? Where does he state that intent? I seem to have missed that conclusion, through two close readings....

[Orwell1984]

In reply to your post,

Do you have works dealing with the arms industry for each nation? To be more specific, on the businesses in the arms industry and the competition among them? Also, the investments in the arms industry?

Try to get access to a copy of Girding for Battle: The Arms Trade in a Global Perspective, 1815-1940 Edited by Donald Stoker and Jonathan Grant. Its bibliography should lead you to some sources capable of answering some of your questions.

[Cannae]

Hi to all,

Kind of reviving this thread to ask if anyone knows the carrying capacity for German ports during the war.

[Carl Schwamberger]

Easiest useful source would be almanacs or atlasses from the late 1930s. A large research library at a university may still have some of those on the shelves. Post surrender the Brits surveyed the ports in their zone and it was done again in the NATO era. Those would be useful for comparison. The port authority in Germany may still have the data archived somewhere. As for fast secondary sources I've no clue, sorry.

[Cannae]

Easiest useful source would be almanacs or atlasses from the late 1930s. A large research library at a university may still have some of those on the shelves. Post surrender the Brits surveyed the ports in their zone and it was done again in the NATO era. Those would be useful for comparison. The port authority in Germany may still have the data archived somewhere. As for fast secondary sources I've no clue, sorry.

Hi Carl, I checked the most recent almanac on the shipping industry here: http://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUAsset ... _Final.pdf and it gives some information on Germany, US, the UK, Russia and Ireland which was used during the war.

For Germany, the main ports today are Bremen/Bremerhaven, Emden, Hamburg, Lübeck, Rostock, and Wilhelmshaven. Bremen airport, Hamburg airport, Lübeck airport, and Rostock-Laage airport are nearby for distribution. Banks with a shipping desk, consulting firm specializing in industry, maritime law services, and insurance brokers have access to the industry. Lump-sum grants for ship mechanics amount to €25,500; for nautical mates’ assistants, to €12,750; and for technical mates’ assistants,
to €17,000. There are also funds available for the reduction of non-wage labor costs. International
shipping companies whose vessels are registered under the flag of Germany and are wholly owned by natural or juristic private persons of the EEA are eligible to receive grants for crew members who are EU citizens or citizens of EFTA-states. Depending on the size of the ship and the position occupied by the employee aboard the ship, grants range between €4,700 and €8,400.

For Russia, ports are at Arkhangelsk, Azov, Kaliningrad, Kavkaz, Magadan Murmansk, Nakhodka, Novorossiysk, Primorsk, Rostov-on-Don, St. Petersburg, Taman, Tuapse, Vanino, Ust’-Luga, Vladivostok, Vostochny, Vysotsk, and Yeisk. Anapa, Gelendjick, Kalinigrad, Krasnodar, Rostov-on-Don, St. Petersburg, Taganrog, and Vladivistok all have airports for accomodation.

I could keep on copy pasting but I don't have much time at hand. I would be interested in free trade areas, tariff levels, elasticity, potential port developments, and land routes.

[Guaporense]

A brief excerpt of an interview with Wagenführ here:
http://www.cdvandt.org/bios17_wagenfuhr.htm

Abelshauser offers a few reservations to Wagenführ/Eichholtz, but AFAIK Tooze was the first English language historian to fundamentally challenge Wagenführ's statistics - according to which Speer was indeed a genius, not least in the productivity field - whereas most other economic historians have eaten Wagenführ's figures wholesale.

He doesn't exactly says that Wagenführ's statistics are wrong. What he does is that he does a reinterpretation of these statistics. First, these statistics didn't measure the total amount of industrial production related to the armed forces, only final munitions and didn't take into account many important things.

For instance, he correctly observes that the surge in war production from 1942 to 1944 was driven by ammunition, especially in 1942, and ammunition was almost simple function of steel tonnage allocated for it's production: drop more steel for ammunition and war production soars to new heights.

But I found his arguments that Germany's war effort was not badly run, to be unconvincing. I failed to notice any logical argumentation on his part for this matter. Though he helps to demolish the myth that Speer was a genius that hugely improved the efficiency of the German war economy. That's of course a myth, though I am not sure of many serious historians believed in this myth.

And also there is the fact that he does a series of invalid assertions at the beginning of the book (one gets the impression that Germany was a third world country in the 1920's and 1930's from Tooze's book). Also, he thinks that Maddison's GDP estimates are a better assessment of the relative levels of international economic influence of the respective countries than the actual impressions of the economists of the time. Maddison's GDP estimates are crude estimates and shouldn't be taken as seriously as he did, he plotted Maddison's GDP figures as if they were facts, for instance, when he claimed that living standards in Germany didn't show a tendency of improvement after 1913 up to 1939 and that living standards in Germany were terribly lower than in UK. In fact, analysis in real wages shows that in 1937 the German wages were 2/3 higher than 30 years earlier and that they were 86% of the British levels, while unemployment in Germany was near zero, while it was 10% in Britain. So the actual levels of real income per person in the labor force were about equal, considering that a significant fraction of the British labor force didn't have any income. And also, German wages were increasing at a faster pace than British wages.

Overall, it appears to me that the book is mostly rhetorical, based on selective evidence and lacks logical rigor. I also think that he was rather biased (he mocks the German Panzer divisions during Barbarossa ("tiny tanks"), the Me-211, the Panther tank and their overall military effort during the war).

Anyway, it still appears that it is impossible for someone to write about WW2 using cold logical analysis, the Nazi ideology is still a too strong memory that it still affects judgment of the military events of WW2. At least, this particular author fails to engage the subject without any bias.

Unfortunately Tooze somewhat down-played his beef with Overy and relegated much of it to the end-notes of his seminal book.

What beef? From what I have read I think that Overy had a better understanding of the geopolitical structure involving WW2.

[ljadw]

Well,the fact remains that the Speer myth is a myth .
Germany was doing what was possible before WWII,to prepare itself for a next war .
German industrial investments in armament industries and autary industries:
1936 :1.4 billion of RM
1937:2.39 billion
1938:3.05
1939:3.365
1940:4.6
1941:4.8
1942:4.88
1943:3.87
Source:Nazi Germany' preparation for war (Table A7:decomposition of industrial investments)
I also don't see any proofs for your claim that Tooze was wrong when he said that Germany's war effort was not badly run .
If Tooze is wrong,I am sure that you can give us some exemples where the Germans did things wrong,and,that you can indicate us how they could have done better.

[Guaporense]

Tooze compares the living standards of Germany in the late 1930's with Iran today. Well, Iran today has a similar level of per capita income to Brazil, around 12,000 dollars. In fact, if one uses Maddison's GDP numbers they yield incomes in 1937 of:

Germany (1937): 4,685 1990 dollars

Compared to modern Brazilian incomes PPP adjusted to 1990 dollars price level:

Brazil (2009): 6,680 1990 dollars
Brazil/Germany = 142.6%

So, if we believe in Maddison's numbers Brazil in 2009 had per capita incomes about 40-50% higher than Germany in 1937. However, since I live in Brazil and know the costs of stuff here, and also the average wages.

For Germany in 1937 the average wage across the entire labor force was 1,850 marks per year. A pound of bread cost 0.1415 marks. A pound of cheese cost 0.422 marks. A pound of potatoes, 0.03 marks. A ton of steel sold for 80.47 marks per ton. (http://www.coll.mpg.de/pdf_dat/2009_18online.pdf)

In Brazil in 2009 the average wage across the entire labor force was 14,222 BRL. A pound of bread cost 2.2 BRL, a pound of cheese, 5 BRL (cheapest variety). A pound of potatoes, 0.55 BRL. A ton of steel sold for 1,315 BRL.

So these are the annual wages in each of these 4 goods:

Bread:
Germany (1937) - 12,756 pounds
Brazil (2009) - 6,465 pounds
Brazil/Germany = 50.7%

Cheese:
Germany (1937) - 4,384 pounds
Brazil (2009) - 2,844 pounds
Brazil/Germany = 64.9%

Potatoes:
Germany (1937) - 61,667 pounds
Brazil (2009) - 25,858 pounds
Brazil/Germany = 41.9%

Steel:
Germany (1937) - 22.99 tons
Brazil (2009) - 10.82 tons
Brazil/Germany = 47.1%

Average (Brazil/Germany): 51.1%

Brazilian real wages in 2009 are systematically around 50% of German wages of 1937. That's a discrepancy of 300% between the per capita income figures used by Tooze and the wage data. And note that real wages are strongly correlated with per capita incomes.

We can do the same comparison using American wages of 2011 and 2011 prices and per capita incomes. US average hourly wages were 19.45 dollars in mid 2011. The average number of hours worked per year was 1,797 hours. Implying in an average annual wage of 34,951 dollars in 2011.

US per capita income in 2011 in 1990 dollars was 29,384 dollars.

So, USA(2011)/Germany(1937) = 627.2%,

If we believe in Maddison's numbers. However, let's compare real wages? Average steel prices were 881 dollars in mid 2011 (http://www.worldsteelprices.com/), though they were quite above trend, the average price for 2011-2012 would be 780 dollars. A loaf of bread was 1.490 dollars. Cheese (price of the cheaper processed cheese) 3.922 dollars per pound. A pound of white potatoes, 0.685 dollars (http://www.bls.gov/ro3/apmw.htm).

So we have:

Bread:
Germany (1937) - 12,756 pounds
USA (2011) - 23,457 pounds
USA/Germany = 183.9%

Potatoes:
Germany (1937) - 61,667 pounds
USA (2011) - 51,023 pounds
USA/Germany = 82.7%

Cheese:
Germany (1937) - 4,384 pounds
USA (2011) - 8,911 pounds
USA/Germany = 203.3%

Steel:
Germany (1937) - 22.99 tons
USA (2011) - 44.8 tons
USA/Germany = 194.9%

Potato prices are a bit high in the US though. While meat prices are low, compared to Germany meat prices in the 1930's. If we include bacon prices, which were 4.840 dollars per pound in mid 2011 USA and 1.005 marks per pound in 1937 Germany, we have:

Bacon:
Germany (1937) - 1,841 pounds
USA (2011) - 7,221 pounds
USA/Germany = 392.2%

Still below the discrepancy between the incomes by Maddison, even in this highly distorted comparison. The average of the ratio of purchasing power of wages of the 5 products would be:

USA/Germany = 211.4%

That's also a 3 fold discrepancy between Maddison's figures are the wage figures. Notice that Brazil (2009) / USA (2011) comparison holds well against PPP Per Capita incomes:

Income:
Brazil (2009) - 6,680 dollars
USA (2011) - 29,384 dollars

Bread:
Brazil (2009) - 6,465 pounds
USA (2011) - 23,457 pounds

Cheese:
Brazil (2009) - 2,844 pounds
USA (2011) - 8,911 pounds

Steel:
Brazil (2009) - 10.82 tons
USA (2011) - 44.8 tons

Excluding the expensive potatoes of the US.

So, it is plain wrong to use Maddison's figures to compare modern and 1930's levels of per capita income like Tooze does. Tooze also claims that a Reichsmark in 1940 was equivalent to 10 Euros of 2007 in purchasing power. Notice the similar ratio between the 2011 dollar and the 1937 Mark. Also Tooze failed to notice the massive discrepancy between his claim 1 reischmark = 10 euros and the use of Maddison's data to show how poor Germany was (he should have said 1 mark = 3 euros). For comparison, Maddison uses a bogus conversion rate of roughly 1 mark = 3 dollars.

Apparently, Germany's levels of income in 1937 were much higher in modern terms than Tooze appears to believe. Also, the same applies to several other countries in the 1930's, specially other Continental European countries such as France.