FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
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waldzee
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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#16

Post by waldzee » 21 Jun 2012, 12:22

Gorque wrote:While the UK allowed the transfer of Czech gold to the coffers of the Reich to occur, I'm curious as to what happened to Czech gold, if any, held by the United States, as the U.S. considered the elimination of the Czech state as only temporary and that the nation would once again be restored.

Of course, we can assume the primary thrust of this thread to be whatever we perceive it to be as it appears that the O.P. has abandoned it.

Swamp Nazi's anyone? :lol:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Black leather swamp nazi's?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1va7m6gCi8
:D :D :D :D

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#17

Post by Gorque » 21 Jun 2012, 13:07

Hi Waldzee:
waldzee wrote:Black leather swamp nazi's?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1va7m6gCi8
:D :D :D :D
:lol: Thanks for that. I've never heard of that song before. I guess the term is more familiar than I thought. :D

I often jested with others on the various mutations of Nazi's that have and may appear and the conversation usually includes, sooner or later, the dreaded "Swamp Nazi".

Best regards,

Gorque


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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#18

Post by waldzee » 21 Jun 2012, 17:27

Gorque wrote:Hi Waldzee:
waldzee wrote:Black leather swamp nazi's?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1va7m6gCi8
:D :D :D :D
:lol: Thanks for that. I've never heard of that song before. I guess the term is more familiar than I thought. :D

I often jested with others on the various mutations of Nazi's that have and may appear and the conversation usually includes, sooner or later, the dreaded "Swamp Nazi".

Best regards,

Gorque
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Based on the sound quality I suspect the famed George Martin of Abbey Roads Studios WASN`T involved :P

ahem -back on target:
FDR`s administration activly attempted to persuade the REich to adopt a bimetal standard of Silverégold as hard currency backing, until after the Munich Crisis, when attitudes `hardened`. The US federal reserve was awash in silver .

AFAIR,tariff exemptions were offered to raise the funds to buy the silver through imports

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#19

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 22 Jun 2012, 13:43

Gorque wrote:While the UK allowed the transfer of Czech gold to the coffers of the Reich to occur, I'm curious as to what happened to Czech gold, if any, held by the United States, as the U.S. considered the elimination of the Czech state as only temporary and that the nation would once again be restored.
Probablly very little Cezch gold was actually in the US. Whole sale physical transfers of gold bullion had fallen off gradually from the late 19th Century and the daily 'transfers' to balance accounts were paper transactions with the gold remaining in place, just relabeled. For the most part the bullion sat in the same bank vault and transfers were in the ledgers. The French moving two shiploads of bullion to Toronto Canada in March 1940 was notable by its rarity. That was done to ensure US businesses selling to the French would feel confident their contracts/credits with France were secure.

In the 1920s the paper transaction of gold transfers was made more efficient by the establishment of the 'Bank of International Settlements'. This was located in Switzerland and was a clearing house for gold bullion transactions. Many European nations and banks kept a portion of their bullion in the BIS vaults and depended on the staff there to track daily payments. In the late 1930s the head of the German Reichs Bank was made chief of the BIS, giving the nazis a degree of administrative control. The Cezch gold the nazis accquired in March 1939 included the portion stored in the BIS vaults in Switzerland.

Post war there was a accountants nightmare as the banks & government treasuries tried to sort out the hash the war had made of the global banking system.

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#20

Post by Andy H » 22 Jun 2012, 13:51

Thank you Gents for your contribution so far, but please can we get back on track please and not go off at tangents.

Regards

Andy H

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#21

Post by waldzee » 22 Jun 2012, 16:38

Andy H wrote:Thank you Gents for your contribution so far, but please can we get back on track please and not go off at tangents.

Regards

Andy H
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Andy, can you provide a link to your original source, please?

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#22

Post by Andy H » 22 Jun 2012, 17:04

waldzee wrote:
Andy H wrote:Thank you Gents for your contribution so far, but please can we get back on track please and not go off at tangents.

Regards

Andy H
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Andy, can you provide a link to your original source, please?
Hi

This is from an essay (Pg977) entitled America's role in the Appeasement of Nazi Germany by Frederick W Marks III published in The Historical Journal (Dec'85)
Mooney's next mission to Europe is of exceptional interest for two reasons: first,because it runs parallel to segments of the Welles mission; secondly, because it throws light on obscure aspects of the American peace plan. Roosevelt, as it develops, sought to appear as friendly as possible to the Germans. He wanted it said that he had spent a portion of his youth in Germany, having attended elementary school there,and that the Germans might retain what ever form of government they preferred, this was 'their affair'.

In addition, Mooney was to let it be known that FDR wished to act as 'moderator' rather than 'mediator' since the former term was associated with American town meetings. Berlin might satisfy its colonial appetite by developing Central Tropical Africa instead of its former colonies, but with the
right to thecolonies reaffirmed (Goring accepted, adding that it would be a pity to underminethe stabilizing influence of the British Empire). As anticipated, disarmament andliberalized world trade were brought forward as a substitute for 'extreme' politicaldemands which could not be met, and Roosevelt went beyond this to promise contributions to the German economy, including tariff reduction and a 'free gift'of American gold.
I've highlighted the text I'm referring to, though you can read the whole essay (Pg969-982) via this link:-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/55452809/F...f-Nazi-Germany

Regards

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#23

Post by Andy H » 22 Jun 2012, 17:06

and in addition I've found this snippet in some seminar notes:-
Traitors in Expensive Suits:
Members of the Millionaire Class, Their Un-American Acts During President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s Administration, Their Attacks on that Administration


which maybe the basis for the later proposal by FDR
In the spring of 1939, James Mooney, “head of General Motors’s overseas operations and hence GM’s most important executive in Europe in the late 1930s” visited Berlin to propose “arranging a large [$0.5-$1 billion] gold loan to Germany…In exchange, Germany would terminate…raw materials import restrictions” which forced General Motors “to finance in dollars
rubber imports for Opel production.” The loan fell through,
http://www.usfsm.edu/academics/cas/c...re%20class.pdf

Regards

Andy H

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#24

Post by Andy H » 22 Jun 2012, 17:08

and this

There is also some interesting information regarding a earlier proposed Gold Loan in this work by David Hayward in 2002:-
U.S. - GERMAN TRADE POLICIES & ECONOMIC PREPARATION FOR WAR, 1933-40
The extent to which trade would have continued with the U.S. is difficult to assess, though given the evidence of the peace missions, the U.S. was offering trade in return for peace and therefore any settlement would encompass this.
http://www.gmhistorian.btinternet.co...icpolicies.htm

Regards

Andy H

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#25

Post by waldzee » 22 Jun 2012, 17:40

Andy H wrote:
waldzee wrote:
Andy H wrote:Thank you Gents for your contribution so far, but please can we get back on track please and not go off at tangents.

Regards

Andy H
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Andy, can you provide a link to your original source, please?
Hi

This is from an essay (Pg977) entitled America's role in the Appeasement of Nazi Germany by Frederick W Marks III published in The Historical Journal (Dec'85)
Mooney's next mission to Europe is of exceptional interest for two reasons: first,because it runs parallel to segments of the Welles mission; secondly, because it throws light on obscure aspects of the American peace plan. Roosevelt, as it develops, sought to appear as friendly as possible to the Germans. He wanted it said that he had spent a portion of his youth in Germany, having attended elementary school there,and that the Germans might retain what ever form of government they preferred, this was 'their affair'.

In addition, Mooney was to let it be known that FDR wished to act as 'moderator' rather than 'mediator' since the former term was associated with American town meetings. Berlin might satisfy its colonial appetite by developing Central Tropical Africa instead of its former colonies, but with the
right to thecolonies reaffirmed (Goring accepted, adding that it would be a pity to underminethe stabilizing influence of the British Empire). As anticipated, disarmament andliberalized world trade were brought forward as a substitute for 'extreme' politicaldemands which could not be met, and Roosevelt went beyond this to promise contributions to the German economy, including tariff reduction and a 'free gift'of American gold.
I've highlighted the text I'm referring to, though you can read the whole essay (Pg969-982) via this link:-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/55452809/F...f-Nazi-Germany

Regards
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Following Frederick Mark's agrument on the 'gold gift' is pretty 'tenous'. I'll try to get to the other articles as time allows.
Mark's souce for the gold gift appears to be a 'lost copy' of American Neutrality magazine.

I suspect that the Mooney mission was an attempt to
liquidate`GMc`s investment in GMBH Opel before the curtain closed. An investment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel made on the Cheap with Dawes plan funding in the late 1920`s

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#26

Post by waldzee » 22 Jun 2012, 19:32

Andy H wrote:and in addition I've found this snippet in some seminar notes:-
Traitors in Expensive Suits:
Members of the Millionaire Class, Their Un-American Acts During President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s Administration, Their Attacks on that Administration


which maybe the basis for the later proposal by FDR
In the spring of 1939, James Mooney, “head of General Motors’s overseas operations and hence GM’s most important executive in Europe in the late 1930s” visited Berlin to propose “arranging a large [$0.5-$1 billion] gold loan to Germany…In exchange, Germany would terminate…raw materials import restrictions” which forced General Motors “to finance in dollars
rubber imports for Opel production.” The loan fell through,
http://www.usfsm.edu/academics/cas/c...re%20class.pdf

Regards

Andy H
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
both your last two links are not operative.
From your quote. I assume that the bi- metal proposals of the US treasury department 'got morphed ' into a gold givaway in the heat of the 1940 election.

Unlike the reserved & gentlemanly way that election campaigns are conducted in the UK, politics on this continent is a blood sport.. :D

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#27

Post by waldzee » 22 Jun 2012, 19:32

Andy H wrote:and in addition I've found this snippet in some seminar notes:-
Traitors in Expensive Suits:
Members of the Millionaire Class, Their Un-American Acts During President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s Administration, Their Attacks on that Administration


which maybe the basis for the later proposal by FDR
In the spring of 1939, James Mooney, “head of General Motors’s overseas operations and hence GM’s most important executive in Europe in the late 1930s” visited Berlin to propose “arranging a large [$0.5-$1 billion] gold loan to Germany…In exchange, Germany would terminate…raw materials import restrictions” which forced General Motors “to finance in dollars
rubber imports for Opel production.” The loan fell through,
http://www.usfsm.edu/academics/cas/c...re%20class.pdf

Regards

Andy H
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
FYI, we have a number of photos show up inthe vehicles section taht are mistaken for 1938-39 German Buicks. the Opel Kapitan is a dead ringer.

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#28

Post by Takao » 24 Jun 2012, 03:37

Try these
Traitors in Expensive Suits.
http://www.usfsm.edu/academics/cas/caps ... 0class.pdf


U.S. - GERMAN TRADE POLICIES & ECONOMIC PREPARATION FOR WAR, 1933-40
http://www.gmhistorian.btinternet.co.uk ... licies.htm

For some reason, the truncation of the web addy(the ... )is accidentally being used as part of the web address, hence the problem.

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#29

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 24 Jun 2012, 14:29

Just skimming those two this morning they look like interesting companions to Highams 'Trading With the Enemy'. Perhpas some comment from some economic historians can be solicited on them.

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Re: FDR's promise of US Gold to Hitlers Germany 1940

#30

Post by Gorque » 25 Jun 2012, 14:44

Hi Carl:
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
Probablly very little Cezch gold was actually in the US. Whole sale physical transfers of gold bullion had fallen off gradually from the late 19th Century and the daily 'transfers' to balance accounts were paper transactions with the gold remaining in place, just relabeled. For the most part the bullion sat in the same bank vault and transfers were in the ledgers. The French moving two shiploads of bullion to Toronto Canada in March 1940 was notable by its rarity. That was done to ensure US businesses selling to the French would feel confident their contracts/credits with France were secure.

In the 1920s the paper transaction of gold transfers was made more efficient by the establishment of the 'Bank of International Settlements'. This was located in Switzerland and was a clearing house for gold bullion transactions. Many European nations and banks kept a portion of their bullion in the BIS vaults and depended on the staff there to track daily payments. In the late 1930s the head of the German Reichs Bank was made chief of the BIS, giving the nazis a degree of administrative control. The Cezch gold the nazis accquired in March 1939 included the portion stored in the BIS vaults in Switzerland.

Post war there was a accountants nightmare as the banks & government treasuries tried to sort out the hash the war had made of the global banking system.
Thanks for the detailed explanation of the 'Bank of International Settlements'. That explains a lot regarding a similar notation I had made to myself on the transfer of Czech gold from the Swiss to the Germans. In the regard to Czech gold in the U.S., I located an news article from April 26, 1946 entitled "Czech Assets Unfrozen" which stated that $ 9,400,000 was unfrozen by the Treasury Department to Czechoslovakia on the 24th.

I also found mention of what appears to be large physical gold transfers to the U.S. prior to the 1940 transfer from France to Canada that you've noted in a April 2, 1939 article, written by Elliott V. Bell, entitled "Bankers Uphold Huge Gold Stock"
It is true, bankers pointed out, that the United States has amassed an enormous stock of gold, and the fact that this concentration of gold constitutes a serious problem, both from the standpoint of domestic economy and also from the standpoint of world monetary affairs, has been recognized. To a considerable extent, however, the gold that has come to the United States is being held in trust by us for other countries. It has come here partly because of our favorable trade balance but also because capital has been in flight from the threat of war in Europe and has been seeking safety in this country.
The extent to which fear of war has sent gold here has been strikingly illustrated in the Munich crisis of last Autumn and in the current scare. Monetary gold stocks of the United States rose $ 520,900,000 in September and $ 562,400,000 in October last year. In the three weeks ended on Wednesday the gold stocks jumped another $ 237,000,000 and it is estimated that about $ 130,000,000 of the metal has arrived in the last three days, including a record-breaking shipment of $ 56,500,000. Gold is pouring out of Europe to this country not because the United States is seeking it but because Europe fears a war.
Best regards,

Gorque.

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