Guaporense wrote:RichTO90 wrote:The actual
Didn't you notice they are the same figures?
Um, no, they are not.
Guaporense wrote:
------------------------------------- Germany ------------ USA
Fighters -------------------------- 28,926 --------------- 38,873
------ single-engine ------------- 25,580 --------------- 34,140
------ twin-engine --------------- 3,066 ------------------ 4,733
Bombers ------------------------- 6,468 ----------------- 35,003
------ tactical -------------------- 5,950 ----------------- 18,958
------ strategic ------------------- 518 ------------------- 16,045
RichTO90 wrote:
Combat Aircraft Germany/USA
4-engine Bombers 518/16,331
2-engine bombers 5,041/18,672
1-engine bombers 909/8,614
2-engine fighters 3,066/4,733
1-engine Fighters 25,860/34,140
The division between “tactical” and “strategic” bombers is your own invention, which obscures rather than enlightens. Neither side used such a convention. Nevertheless, let’s arrange my figures into your categories and see if they are “the same”.
German
You have 518 “strategic bombers”
I have 518 “4-engine bombers”
You have 5,950 “tactical bombers”
I have 5,950 “1-engine and 2-engine bombers”
Spot on you!
American
You have 16,045 “strategic bombers”
I have 16,331 “4-engine bombers”
You missed the Navy 4-engine patrol bombers
You have 18,958 “tactical bombers”
I have 27,286 “1-engine and 2-engine bombers”
You missed the Navy 2-engine patrol bombers and 1-engine scout, dive, and torpedo bombers
So getting German figures correct, but American figures off by as much as one-third, equals the “same figures”? How strange.
Sources?
Here we have aero engine production:
By year it appears:
1940 - 15,000
1941 - 23,000
1942 - 40,000
1943 - 54,000
1944 - 54,000
total: 186,000
Damn, I forgot Junkers! Got me. Mind you, your numbers are still incorrect.
Junkers/BMW/DB
1940 – 7,080/232/6,219/13,531
1941 – 12,375/1,445/7,341/21,161
1942 – 18,581/6,169/10,301/35,051
1943 – 16,804/14,673/19,678/51,155
1944 – 15,174/14,699/26,268/56,141
1945 – 15,129/UNK/UNK/UNK
Total 1940-1944 was 177,039
It's true that aero engine production was a binding constraint on the German aircraft industry, while the US produced a huge number of engines, more than they used.
I see, so the Germans producing insufficient engines to requirement was a “binding constraint”, but the U.S. producing sufficient numbers was “more than they used”? What an odd worldview you have. Mind you, since the corrected figures for 1940-1944 show the German ratio of required versus produced was 1.61:1 does that mean they also produced “more than they used”?
Apologies BTW, the ratio I posted:
Total Engines Required 37,055/154,788
Total Engines Produced 42,092/232,422
Ratio Engines/Airframes 1.14/1.50
Was just for 1944; corrected to include Jumo production it should be:
Total Engines Required 37,055/154,788
Total Engines Produced 56,141/232,422
Ratio Engines/Airframes 1.52/1.50
So another nice theory shot to hell, which means of course that the low German readiness rates were just because they had crap mechanics and crap material for them to work with.
Everybody lives in his/her "fantasyland". That's because each individual mind cannot grasp the whole reality. If the reality in our mind is different than mine that doesn't mean that you have the right to impose it with pathetic ad-hominem attacks. That's a Nazi type of attitude coming from a pro-American chauvinism perspective, that doesn't fit with perspectives from people from other parts of the world.
You still don’t get it do you? Wrong is wrong. Mistakes are mistakes, whether you make them or I do. The difference seems to be that I’m willing to admit when my figures are wrong, but you prefer to disappear for a year or so and then return to post the same incorrect figures again.
Attacking me from getting the page number wrong by 14-15 pages, because I cited it from memory, is infantile.
Did you “cite” the numbers from memory as well? For example:
Guaporense wrote:RichTO90 wrote:For example, "Aircraft Bombs" in total produced were 5,924,000 short tons or 5,374,163 metric tons.
2% discrepancy, not that relevant.
Is it irrelevant? Why? Do you actually know what your German figures include as “bombs”? Do you know what the American total includes? The American figure is very precise, the German figure is potentially very imprecise. To take your favorite year, 1944 for example, the Germans produced the following types of “bombs” compared to the Americans:
GP Bombs
German
SC50 – 30,510
SC250 – 239,000
SC500 – 32,300
SC100 – 176,000
SC1800 – 132,000
American
100-lb (45KG) – 296,000
150-lb (68 KG) – 188,000
250-lb (113 KG) – 207,000 (1944 was the lowest production year, in 1944 it was 770,000 and the first 8 months of 1945 was 846,000)
500-lb (227 KG) – 2,539,000
1,000-lb (454 KG) – 398,000
2,000-lb (907 KG) – 23,000
4,000-lb (1814 KG) – 22,272
Fragmentation Bombs
SD1 – 66,879,000
SD50 – 177,000
SD70 – 270,000
SD250 – 84,400
SD500 – 2,035
American
4-lb (2 KG) – 2,226,000
20-lb (9 KG) – 19,732, 000
23-lb (10 KG) – 5,024,000
90-lb (41 KG) – 1,071,000
220/260-lb (100/118 KG) – 968,000
Armor Piercing Bombs
German
PC1000 – 82
PC1400 – 47
PC1400FX – 763
US
1,000-lb (454 KG) – 70,180
1,600-lb (726 KG) – 1,744
Incendiary Bombs
German
1 KG – 6,298,000
US
100-lb and 100-lb cluster – 190,000
500-lb and 500-lb cluster- 992,000
1,000-lb cluster – 8,000
Depth Bombs
German
None
US
350-lb (159 KG) – 70,702
650/700-lb – 3,425
Aerial Torpedoes
German – 6,577
US – 6,970
Naval Mines
German – 843
US – 18,392
You’re welcome to do your weight calculations.
Therefore the navy consumed a very small quantity of aircraft bombs, ca. 100,000 metric tons. Aircraft carriers couldn't carry that much ammunition.
There is no “therefore” about it; you are making an assumption, which again is incorrect. Who procured the items doesn’t necessarily define who consumed them. The USN utilized War Department procured bombs, while the AAF in turn utilized Navy Department procured bombs. And Navy Department aircraft, which included quite a number of “tactical” and “strategic” bombers, did not all fly off of aircraft carriers to drop their ordnance.
Therefore the tables should not include 20mm. Also, I didn't count navy and aircraft ammunition for Germany as well.
I see, so when the data doesn’t fit your preconception, you ditch the data before your ditch your preconception. Nice.
artillery, AA, tank and anti-tank projectiles…the US, 2.7 million
Uh, no, again not, for “ground artillery” including heavy field, light field, tank, and antitank ammunition, 37mm and greater, U.S. production from 1 July 1940 to 31 December 1944 was 2,982,545 short tons, so 2,705,719 metric tons, not including antiaircraft ammunition, 37mm and greater, which was another 176,983 short tons or 160,556 metric tons.
Rounds "over 118mm" procured for the Navy?
16-inch - 123,984
14-inch - 149,175
12-inch - 29,754
8-inch - 381,508
6-inch - 1,070,185
5-inch (Surface Fire) - 354,516
5-inch (AA and DP) - 12,456,000
That would weight ca. 0.55 million tons.
Um, no, afraid not. Ammunition for naval surface fire totaled 424,260 short tons, while antiaircraft was 738,366 short tons. So 1,054,716 metric tons.
And considering only the 1940-1944 production, the surface fire ammunition was only 261,000 metric tons. That's 12% of the difference between German and American army ammunition production between 1940 to 1944. I don't have data on 55 inch AA production from 1940 to 1944, to allow a complete comparison.
Again, no, the total was 260,835 actually.
I would also need to consider the large quantities of naval ammunition produced by Germany, a total of 18 million rounds of naval ammunition over 75 mm from 1940 to 1944, using the same average weight as for ground ammunition over 75 mm (4.57 million tons of projectiles from 302 million rounds), that yields a projectile weight of 272,000 metric tons. That's greater than the total American production of surface fire naval ammunition over the same period, though it surely included some AA ammunition. Yep, Germany wasted a great deal of resources making naval ammunition.
Really? I’d love to see what they produced “over 75mm in 1940, because otherwise 1941-1944 they produced:
8.8cm
1941 – 1,392,000
1942 – 10,104,000
1943 – 564,000
1944 – 84,000
10.5cm
1941 – 996,000
1942 – 2,280,000
1943 – 744,000
1944 – 600,000
Production of larger calibers was so minor they didn’t make it into the production reports. Just where did your figures come from?