Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
Art
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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Art » 01 Dec 2018 17:09

Well, how many of them were actually LL?

The apparent paradox is that the number of radios in 1945 was larger than prior to the war while their availability in lower echelons obviously deteriorated. Don't know how to explain it.

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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Stiltzkin » 01 Dec 2018 17:41

The apparent paradox is that the number of radios in 1945 was larger than prior to the war while their availability in lower echelons obviously deteriorated. Don't know how to explain it.
I cannot answer how they utilized them, they just seemed to have more.
What is more relevant, is that they needed just one radio set, on top of that they needed all sorts of specialized signal equipment material and installations. Full sets are just the finished product, they could make their own with the right components.
Signal Equipment, supplies and material were 216,045 (up to Dec 45), included were 60 Radar sets, 28,703 radio sets of all types. 10,237,917 tubes, 343,416 field telephones. The Soviets defeated the Wehrmacht with field telephones.
Most of the LL sets were vehicular installations (such as SCR-284), 11,500.
12,780 No. 19 British. The overall figure listed (USAA WWII statistics, N-16436.32) is 32,129. Deliveries started in 1941 but were nominal, in early 1942 the number rose to a significant level.

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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Art » 02 Dec 2018 08:25

Stiltzkin wrote:
01 Dec 2018 17:41
The overall figure listed (USAA WWII statistics, N-16436.32) is 32,129.
Stats on shipment are available here:
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/re ... hip-5.html
Many of them arrived after May 1945 though.
It's clear that US radios made only a small part of 190 000 radios available to the SU armed forces to the end of the war. The impression I've got from various stuff is that even in 1945 the overwhelming part of Soviet military radios were of domestic production.
343,416 field telephones. The Soviets defeated the Wehrmacht with field telephones.
Image

322 000 LL telephones were received by the army until the war end, while 740 000 were produced in the SU. Add to this more than 250 000 available at the war star plus material captured from Axis armies. At the same time as LL provided the bulk of telephone cable or recharging units deliveries.

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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Hanny » 02 Dec 2018 13:40

Not all radio are send and recieve, some, are recieve only, they cost a quarter of the former. Germany used the former while SU in 41 had very few, hence the TOE of the same number of radio is to miss the point entirley.

German art used send and recieve radio and performed indirect fire with correction, SU fired over open sights as indirect fire could not be corrected, or used pre planned map coordinates and could not correct fire outside of the bigger plan set by higher authority who just gave instructions down the chain of command.

Soviets used so many field phones ( and had a vastly larger gun park that started out no where near as contolled and responsive as German rather modest gun park) they send and recieve and dont require 6 months training to operate, unlike radio operators.

I would bet Dunnigan used the following https://www.scribd.com/document/3493310 ... ganization
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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Cult Icon » 02 Dec 2018 15:56

I recall reading that 40% of the SU's electronics industry was occupied in Barbarossa, which effected the communications

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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Art » 02 Dec 2018 16:05

Hanny wrote:
02 Dec 2018 13:40
Not all radio are send and recieve, some, are recieve only, they cost a quarter of the former. Germany used the former while SU in 41 had very few
I wonder where have this idea come from. All "radios" in the previous discussion stand for transceiver&receiver sets. Isolated receivers were employed by Soviet military, but in relatively small numbers. On the contrary receivers were widely employed by German Heer, in particular by tank forces, where transmitters were only installed on command tanks. So in 1941 a German light tanks company was authorized to have 17 Pz-III and 5 Pz-II tanks. Of them 5 Pz-III and 3 Pz-II were equipped with both receiver and transmitters sets, and 12 Pz-III and 2 Pz-II - with receivers only.
German art used send and recieve radio and performed indirect fire with correction, SU fired over open sights as indirect fire
Again, that's a weird idea. Indirect fire was considered a normal mode of operation for all kinds of artillery, except anti-tank guns. Then, as a matter of fact, radios were both included in the TO&Es of field artillery units, and were actually present - I can post dozens of documents to substantiate that. In fact artillery was prioritized in allocation of radios. Of radios available to usual infantry division about a half or more belonged to artillery elements. That gave them certain minimum means, albeit meager, for normal operations. By a contrast situation with radios and communication equipment in general in infantry and heavy weapons (mortar, AT guns, infantry guns) was a way more bleak.

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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Art » 02 Dec 2018 17:17

Cult Icon wrote:
02 Dec 2018 15:56
I recall reading that 40% of the SU's electronics industry was occupied in Barbarossa, which effected the communications
There was a large concentration at Leningrad, also some facilities at Kiev, Minsk and other places. As I understand the problem was not only a loss of production capacity alone but also a low priority given to communications, including even cases of factories discontinuing production of radios and switching to other items after the war start. Yet, frankly I didn't look at it in detail. Obviously in 1943 and later Soviet production of communications recovered, but that came with the price - Soviet walkie-talkies dropped from production:
https://military.trcvr.ru/2015/08/14/%D ... %80%D1%81/
https://military.trcvr.ru/2015/08/14/%D ... %80%D1%83/
Correspondingly a dearth of communications at lower tactical level.

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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Cult Icon » 02 Dec 2018 18:53

^
Thanks for that.

When i last examined this subject (osprey had some stuff on WW2 communications between various countries)- both the Germans and Soviets were underequipped. Germans were not really adequately equipped in tactical communications either with their outdated and heavy gear. Ideally they had communications links down to platoon level but in practice it was at company level due to shortages.

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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Art » 03 Dec 2018 12:35

German tables of organization issued during the war provided radios down to infantry company level:
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... 0131n.html
I can't really say what was an actual availability, but in any case they seemed to be better off than late-war Soviet infantry where the battalion (about 300-400 men usually) was normally the smallest unit where a radio could be found.

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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Hanny » 03 Dec 2018 13:26

Art wrote:
02 Dec 2018 16:05
I wonder where have this idea come from.
From the evidence.
Art wrote:
02 Dec 2018 16:05
All "radios" in the previous discussion stand for transceiver&receiver sets.
You said look at the TOE, which shows SU used very few send recieve sets when compared to German TOE.
Art wrote:
02 Dec 2018 16:05
Isolated receivers were employed by Soviet military, but in relatively small numbers. On the contrary receivers were widely employed by German Heer, in particular by tank forces, where transmitters were only installed on command tanks. So in 1941 a German light tanks company was authorized to have 17 Pz-III and 5 Pz-II tanks. Of them 5 Pz-III and 3 Pz-II were equipped with both receiver and transmitters sets, and 12 Pz-III and 2 Pz-II - with receivers only.
Ok 22 AFV, all with radio, and 30% send/recieve. compared to SU that only had it on a commander vechicle, thats 10% to 20% with a radio of all AFV compared to 100% and 10/20 to 30% using send recieve, in German use. http://www.battlefield.ru/soviet-radio-equipment.html The answer your gropping around for is on this site. If fact its not till mid war that factories built T34 with radio as standard, a standard thing in German industry before they invaded. 2 years later SU was able to get to the same level of radio present in is its principle AFVs as Geramny started out with.


Art wrote:
02 Dec 2018 16:05
Again, that's a weird idea.
I spent 30 mins reading your post on the board.

Educating you so that evidence is not weird to you, would be a full time occupation, and i simply lack any incentive to try.
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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Art » 03 Dec 2018 16:15

Hanny wrote:
03 Dec 2018 13:26
compared to SU that only had it on a commander vechicle, thats 10% to 20% with a radio of all AFV compared to 100% and 10/20 to 30% using send recieve, in German use. http://www.battlefield.ru/soviet-radio-equipment.html
Not quite 10-20%. The proportion of gun-armed tanks with radio in Jun. 41 was larger:
http://armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/weap ... e01_41.htm
The same proportion after the war start was from 1/3 to 1/2:
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=217496
Nobody argues that a receiver was better than no radio at all. The point was different: namely that receivers were more popular in the German Army, at least in 1941.
Educating you so that evidence is not weird to you, would be a full time occupation, and i simply lack any incentive to try.
"I shall try to bear up under the shame of it"
Reminding what this discussion started with: I maintain that radios were included in the TO&Es of the Soviet artillery units in 1941 and were actually present. I also maintain that allocations of radios in terms of numbers per tactical unit (battery, battalion) rather deteriorated after the war start. Which was, however, counterbalanced by a giant inflation of the number of units. Again, I'm not touching the questions of quality of radios, training experience etc.

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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Cult Icon » 03 Dec 2018 19:43

Art wrote:
03 Dec 2018 12:35
German tables of organization issued during the war provided radios down to infantry company level:
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... 0131n.html
I can't really say what was an actual availability, but in any case they seemed to be better off than late-war Soviet infantry where the battalion (about 300-400 men usually) was normally the smallest unit where a radio could be found.
I have a book on this but forgot where I put it. US infantry had the most advanced communications, with links down to platoon level and better equipment.

The german infantry company was effectively 1-2 platoons anyway most of the time. Yes, I remember that the Soviets had radios down to their "battalion" level, which is smaller than the Western battalion.

It is definitely a disadvantage to rely on runners to carry messages around or shoot up flares, however, I am not sure of how much.

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Re: Was the USSR economically stronger than Germany?

Post by Stiltzkin » 06 Dec 2018 18:09

322 000 LL telephones were received by the army until the war end, while 740 000 were produced in the SU. Add to this more than 250 000 available at the war star plus material captured from Axis armies. At the same time as LL provided the bulk of telephone cable or recharging units deliveries.
Thanks for that, I only had acceptance figures for AFVs etc. LL was a gradual flow in nature. It was more comparable to a dropping bottle injection, alleviating the losses, rather than a pure substitute for anything. Telephone lines were probably one of the most important assets on the EF anyway.

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