German Railways in the East

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
GregSingh
Member
Posts: 2768
Joined: 21 Jun 2012 01:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by GregSingh » 22 Dec 2016 01:28

Good news! Early Christmas gift!
Both publications are now available on the Web and for free.

From Digitale Landesbibliothek Berlin:
Zentralblatt der Bauverwaltung. Issue XXIX. 1909, Nr. 70 pages 461-468

From Lower Silesian Digital Library, Wroclaw:
Zeitschrift für Bauwesen
Scroll down to:
Zeitschrift für Bauwesen, Jr. LX, 1910, H. 1-3, pages 57-90 (for article)
Atlas zur Zeitschrift für Bauwesen, Jr. LX, 1910, Blatt 10-14 (for construction drawings)

These are large files, load slowly and you will need DjVu browser to open them. Worth at the end, very good quality scans.

Enjoy!
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

Walter Jorg
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: 17 Dec 2016 11:53
Location: Neuhofen

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by Walter Jorg » 22 Dec 2016 20:36

Thank you very much for a Christmas gift.
I am satisfied

User avatar
Der Alte Fritz
Member
Posts: 2004
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 21:43
Location: Kent United Kingdom

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 25 Dec 2016 09:34

Is there a list of trains types anywehre
eg. DK Zuge P Zuge N Zuge

and special train types
eg. Peter Arrow

Merry Christmas everyone

GregSingh
Member
Posts: 2768
Joined: 21 Jun 2012 01:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by GregSingh » 25 Dec 2016 11:29

Is there a list of trains types anywhere?
Bits and pieces here and there.
Some of these changed meaning while war progressed... for some meaning changes with context...

Let's start with these general types:

D = Schnellzug
Dt = Schnelltreibwagen

FD = Fernschnellzug
FDt = Fernschnelltreibwagen

E = Eilzug, zuschlagpflichtig
L = Fernschnellzug oder Schnellzug mit besonderem Tarif
P = Personenzug

DmW = Schnellzug mit Wehrmachtszugteil
EmW = Eilzug mit Wehrmachtszugteil
PmW = Personenzug mit Wehrmachtszugteil

SF = Schnellzug für Fronturlauber mit Wagen für den öffentlichen Verkehr; D-Zug-zuschlagpflichtig; ohne Gepäckbeförderung
SFD = Schnellzug für Fronturlauber mit Wagen für den öffentlichen Verkehr; D-Zug-zuschlagpflichtig; mit Gepäckbeförderung
SFE = Schnellzug für Fronturlauber mit Wagen für den öffentlichen Verkehr; Eilzug-zuschlagpflichtig; mit Gepäckbeförderung
SFP = Schnellzug für Fronturlauber mit Wagen für den öffentlichen Verkehr; zuschlagfrei; mit Gepäckbeförderung
SFR = Schnellzug für Fronturlauber mit einigen Wagen für den öffentlichen Reiseverkehr
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

Dann Falk
Member
Posts: 380
Joined: 02 Mar 2009 18:34
Location: California - USA

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by Dann Falk » 25 Dec 2016 19:24

A fast Google Translation...

D = Fast train
Dt = fast driving

FD = fast train
FDt = fast speed truck

E = express train, subject to surcharge
L = fast train or express train with special tariff
P = Passenger train

DmW = Fast train with military unit
EmW = express train with military unit
PmW = Passenger train with military unit

SF = express train for front passengers with car for public transport; D-train-chargeable; Without luggage transport
SFD = express train for front passengers with car for public transport; D-train-chargeable; With luggage transport
SFE = express train for front passengers with car for public transport; Express-duty required; With luggage transport
SFP = express train for front passengers with car for public transport; Free of charge; With luggage transport
SFR = express train for front runners with some carriages for public transport

Dann Falk
Member
Posts: 380
Joined: 02 Mar 2009 18:34
Location: California - USA

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by Dann Falk » 25 Dec 2016 19:35

I should also add - from the Handbook on German Military Forces March 1945 (War Department TM-E-30-452)

I Trains = Infantry trains, 350 men 10 heavy & 10 light vehicles and 70 horses, 55 cars
Sp Trains = Special Tank trains, 20 medium tanks, 33 cars
S Trains = Very Heavy tanks, 4 -6 Tigers or 6-8 Panthers, 30-35 cars
K Trains = Motor Vehicles, 20 heavy and 20 light vehicles, 51 cars

GregSingh
Member
Posts: 2768
Joined: 21 Jun 2012 01:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by GregSingh » 26 Dec 2016 01:34

Thanks Dann.

Some of those English Google translations might require further corrections/explanations, although in general subject is well covered on Wikipedia, eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnellzug

DAF, what's the context for DK and N trains?
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

User avatar
Der Alte Fritz
Member
Posts: 2004
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 21:43
Location: Kent United Kingdom

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 28 Dec 2016 18:24

Just going through all the traffic information again, particularly the Kreidler article I posted a number of months ago.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... n#p2006274

DK = Express Coal train (Schnellzuge Kohl)

N = Nachtrichtzuge ? Signals train? or it might be Nachtzuge = Night train

The context really gives no clue as to the meaning. The main ones that I am puzzling over are the 'special' trains with names like Peter, Arrow, etc as I am not sure if these groups of trains are economic, Wehrmacht or something else.
Last edited by Der Alte Fritz on 28 Dec 2016 19:47, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Der Alte Fritz
Member
Posts: 2004
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 21:43
Location: Kent United Kingdom

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 28 Dec 2016 19:40

Does anyone have any information about the bridge across the Vistula at Deblin particularly in 1944 and 1945?
Michal,
These are excerpts from the book "Mistel" by Robert Forsyth:

18 March 1945:
"General der Flieger Koller signalled Baumbach (KG200) that demands on the Oder front may supersede immediate military intentions and secondly, that the time to utilise a second 'Mistel' unit in the battle for the bridges had arrived."

23 March 1945:
"Following Koller's instruction to Baumbach on the 18th, Oberst Helbig issued orders to KG(J)30 to immediately commence operations on the Oder Front"

"KG 30 will carry out as rapidly as possible the destruction of the Visula bridge. Anticipated targets: Railway bridge near Thorn, both railway bridges near Warsaw, Deblin railway bridge, the railway bridge at Dunajec, east of Krakau. Every bridge six Mistel."

6 April 1945:
"During the late afternoon an unknown number of Mistel of I./KG(J)30 were prepared for a mission over the Oder." ..."we were ordered to attack the Oder bridges south of Stettin, over which came the supplies for the Russian armies attacking the northern sector of the front. Take-off was set for 17.00 hours."

7 April 1945:
"In accordance with Oberst Helbig's orders of 23 March, KG(J)30... commenced operations against the Vistula bridges."....."Under the somewhat uninspired code-name 'Operation Weichselbrücken' Heise was ordred to prepare 24 Mistel from I. and II./KG(J)30 to destroy the enemy-held bridges near Thorn, Warsaw and Deblin as well as Soviet headquarters nera Tarnow."

So, KG(J)30 did participate directly in a few Mistel-attacks.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/i ... 14412.html
For those who do not know what a Mistel is:
Image
think of it as an early cruise missile fashioned out of an obsolete airframe.

The importance of this railway bridge came from the small number of crossings over the Vistula which we have discussed before. The bridge was destroyed in 1944
Be as it may, an attempt by the Russian XVI Tank Corps to cross the railway bridge over the Vistula at Deblin on July 25 1944 has failed with loss of 30 tanks. The bridge could be blown in time. Further Russian tank forces were stopped to the North of Warsaw . We Germans had the impression that it was our defenses which halted the enemy rather than a Russian desire to sabotage the Warsaw uprisng.
Heinz Guderian -"Panzer Leader" page 359 of the1996 eddition.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&start=30
The bridge was rebuilt by the Soviets in January 1945 and it was planned to take 20 days but in fact only took 8. It is this that I am primarily interested in.

Walter Jorg
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: 17 Dec 2016 11:53
Location: Neuhofen

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by Walter Jorg » 28 Dec 2016 22:54

The history of the bridge on the River Vistula in Deblin:
1885 - construction of the railway bridge on the lattice structure and a fixed height, span spans 5 x 88.00 m
1915 - blown up by Russian troops
1916 - reconstruction by the Austrian army
1929 - construction of new structures, trusses parabolic
1939 - blown up by Polish troops
1940 - rebuilt by German troops
1944 - blown up by German troops
1947 - rebuilt.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiRA9kdP6D8
minuta 3:03 most na rzecze Wiśle w Deblinie.
A few more photos of 1940:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Walter Jorg
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: 17 Dec 2016 11:53
Location: Neuhofen

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by Walter Jorg » 28 Dec 2016 22:58

Additional pictures 1940:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

GregSingh
Member
Posts: 2768
Joined: 21 Jun 2012 01:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by GregSingh » 29 Dec 2016 02:04

N = Nachtrichtzuge ? Signals train? or it might be Nachtzuge = Night train

The context really gives no clue as to the meaning. The main ones that I am puzzling over are the 'special' trains with names like Peter, Arrow, etc as I am not sure if these groups of trains are economic, Wehrmacht or something else.

From 1943 traffic manual:

N Zug = Nachzug (train with a lower priority - following)
V Zug = Vorzug (train with a higher priority - preceding)

"In some circumstances a special train can receive a name, which becomes integral part of train number".

But it does not say that a specific name reflects a train's priority.
Kreidler said that train prioritization by a code name caused confusion, perhaps it was dropped by 1943?
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

GregSingh
Member
Posts: 2768
Joined: 21 Jun 2012 01:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by GregSingh » 29 Dec 2016 02:56

The bridge was rebuilt by the Soviets in January 1945 and it was planned to take 20 days but in fact only took 8. It is this that I am primarily interested in.
That is incorrect.
Dęblin bridge was still destroyed in 1946. See photo below. Soviets built a temporary timber bridge next to it in 1945.
You can see a train passing by just behind a destroyed bridge!
Deblin 1946.jpg
1939 - blown up by Polish troops
That is also incorrect. Only one span was damaged, but did not collapse.
We can see this on photos, one more was uploaded back in May 2014 earlier in this topic.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

User avatar
Der Alte Fritz
Member
Posts: 2004
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 21:43
Location: Kent United Kingdom

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 30 Dec 2016 00:33

Excellent photographs.
Looks like the Germans dropped two of the five spans. So it was easier for the Soviets to build a new bridge alongside it even though, presumably also 515 metres long. Doing this in 8 days is quite an achievement at 56 metres a day.

The units involved in this construction and the repair of the railway lines associated with Deblin were:
The structure of this railway were UVVR Brigade 1 st Guards (commander Major General technical troops VP Thission), 29th (commander Major General technical troops slingshot VI), 5th (commander Colonel T. K. Yatsyna), as well as special units People's Commissariat - [235] 2 mostopoezda (special train for repairing bridges , 2 svyazrema (signalling repair train), 3 vodrema (water installation train) and 1 grief (repair and refurbishment train), for which the main railway lines were: Warsaw - Kutno - Poznań - Knesdorf and Deblin - Skarzysko - Kamenka - Lodz - Landsberg - Küstrin.
The second bridge across the Vistula within the boundaries of the 1st Belorussian Front in Demblin restored 5th railway brigade Colonel TK Yatsyna. Bridge a total length of 510 meters was put into operation January 23, 1945 - 12 days before the set date. This team has successfully restored and the direction of Deblin - Lodz. Order of the Supreme Commander she was awarded the honorary title of Poznan.

Walter Jorg
Member
Posts: 13
Joined: 17 Dec 2016 11:53
Location: Neuhofen

Re: German Railways in the East

Post by Walter Jorg » 31 Dec 2016 16:16

Film archive Imperial War Museum, showing the moment of entry Austro-Hungarian troops to Deblin in 1915.
Parts of the fifth film. Minute 1:34 - destroyed by the Russians railway bridge in Deblin.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/ ... 1060008256

Return to “Economy”