Locomotive production of USA/GB

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
Politician01
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Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by Politician01 » 18 May 2014 08:18

I found numbers for the germans - they build some 17 000 locomotives from 1940-1944
I also have numbers for the Soviets which state that they build some 1000 Locomotives from 1939-1945 - only 90 between 1942-1945

But what about the Locomotive production of Great Britain and the USA?

I can imagine that the loco production of the USA was massive - How about britain though?

GregSingh
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by GregSingh » 18 May 2014 14:17

According to Mierzejewski, Germany's numbers for 1940-44 were 12096.
Soviet's numbers for 1940-44 (Rakov) were 1680, in 1939 alone number was 1012. Post number #154 in "German Railways in the East" topic has a table.

UK numbers (based on manufactures data) were around 2138 for 1940-47:
WD Austerity 2-8-0 - 935 (1943)
WD Austerity 2-10-0 - 150 (1943-45)
Hunslet Austerity 0-6-0ST - 377 (1943-47)
Class 8F - 676 (1942-46)
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

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Andy H
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by Andy H » 19 May 2014 11:06

Hi

Russia received some 1900 steam and 50 diesel locomotives via LL.
Source: Steel Rails to Victory by Ron Ziel

The same source gives a rounded figure of 40,000 for US loco production!

Regards

Andy H

Politician01
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by Politician01 » 22 May 2014 09:03

GregSingh wrote:
UK numbers (based on manufactures data) were around 2138 for 1940-47:
WD Austerity 2-8-0 - 935 (1943)
WD Austerity 2-10-0 - 150 (1943-45)
Hunslet Austerity 0-6-0ST - 377 (1943-47)
Class 8F - 676 (1942-46)
Any book or article where I can quote from?

GregSingh
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by GregSingh » 22 May 2014 10:02

Two good books:
J.W.P. Rowledge - Heavy Goods Engines of the War Department and R. Tourret - Allied Military Locomotives of the Second World War
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

Politician01
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by Politician01 » 30 May 2014 22:20

Andy H wrote:Hi

Russia received some 1900 steam and 50 diesel locomotives via LL.
Source: Steel Rails to Victory by Ron Ziel

The same source gives a rounded figure of 40,000 for US loco production!

Regards

Andy H
I found a good source for US loco production According to - Alexander, Edwin P. American locomotives - the US build only 6000 locomotives from 1939-1945.

41 000 Steam locomotives were present in 1950 in the US

If gregs numbers of some 2100 British locomotives build in 1940-1947 is reliable it would mean that Germany built nearly twice as many locomotives as the big three combined

GregSingh
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by GregSingh » 31 May 2014 08:48

I found a good source for US loco production According to - Alexander, Edwin P. American locomotives - the US build only 6000 locomotives from 1939-1945.
Does he provide any specifications by maker or class?

ALCO alone produced 4,488 locomotives during 1940-45. Baldwin and Lima made 1365 USATC S160 Class. Also Baldwin made 937 1-5-0 locomotives for Soviet Union. So we already have 6790.

There were also 2-8-2 USATC S200 »Mikado« and 2-8-0 Stanier 8F built by US for UK - in low hundreds - so we may be at around 7000.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

RichTO90
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by RichTO90 » 31 May 2014 14:20

Politician01 wrote:I found a good source for US loco production According to - Alexander, Edwin P. American locomotives - the US build only 6000 locomotives from 1939-1945.
I'm afraid it can't be that good a source since its wrong. :D

U.S. Army Transportation Corps procurement of locomotives alone for just 1942-1943 was 7,570.

3,816 Standard Gage
2 30-inch Gauge
113 36-inch Gauge
186 42-inch Gauge
2,451 60-inch Gauge
336 66-inch Gauge
16 750mm Gauge
630 Meter Gauge

Unless he was talking about standard gauge only. :D

Anyway, of those, of the 60-inch gauge, 1,685 were 105-ton, 2-10-0 ALCO and Baldwin steam locomotives (built to the Soviet E-series design), 200 were 80-ton 2-8-0 USATC S160-class steam locomotives, and 70 were 127-ton diesel electric locomotives for the USSR.

GregSingh
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by GregSingh » 01 Jun 2014 02:27

U.S. Army Transportation Corps procurement of locomotives alone for just 1942-1943 was 7,570.
Yes, but it does not mean that all of them were actually built, only makers data can confirm that.
Also some of them from that 1942-1943 order were completed later in 1944, eg. ALCO diesel electric locomotives, and shipped to USSR in early 1945!
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

RichTO90
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by RichTO90 » 01 Jun 2014 05:09

GregSingh wrote:Yes, but it does not mean that all of them were actually built, only makers data can confirm that.
Sorry, but no, it means exactly that; the number that were actually built. Data is for quantities of items procured by year of delivery and is based upon plant acceptances. For the 60-inch Gauge 2-10-0 steam locomotives, 1,206 were accepted in 1944 and 883 in 1945. For the RSD-1s, 39 were accepted in 1944 and 61 in 1945.
Also some of them from that 1942-1943 order were completed later in 1944, eg. ALCO diesel electric locomotives, and shipped to USSR in early 1945!
Nobody asked for when they were delivered to the Soviets; the question was how many were built. Note that the order for the E-series locomotives was for 2,047; the 1,685 were what was shipped as Lend-Lease through 1945. Of the 200 S160-class, six were lost en route and one never left the US. Yes, the 70 RSD-1's were shipped in 1945, two were lost en route, the rest were received.

GregSingh
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by GregSingh » 01 Jun 2014 08:36

Sorry, but no, it means exactly that; the number that were actually built.
But I don't know how to explain this:
From USA/TC order for 1942-43:
2 30-inch Gauge
113 36-inch Gauge
186 42-inch Gauge
16 750mm Gauge
630 Meter Gauge
It's 947 locomotives, but it seems (R.Tourret) that only 816 narrow-gauge 2-8-2 and 33 narrow-gauge 0-4-0P were made.
That's 849. I know of 43 USATC S118 Class narrow-gauge 2-8-2 being cancelled from that order. Still we miss close to 50...

That's why I think that not all were built from that order. Only happy to be proven otherwise... :)
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

RichTO90
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by RichTO90 » 02 Jun 2014 02:04

GregSingh wrote: But I don't know how to explain this:
Perhaps because your data are faulty? :D
From USA/TC order for 1942-43:
That is not an "order"; it is the total number accepted, 1942-1945 (nominally 1940-1945, but there is no data for acceptances 1940-1941). By year it is (1942/1943/1944/1945):

All locomotives:
Standard Gauge 814/1424/838/740
30-inch Gauge 2/0/0/0
36-inch Gauge 25/57/23/8
42-inch Gauge 35/34/65/52
60-inch Gauge 1/200/1270/980
750mm Gauge 0/0/0/16
Meter Gauge 26/368/204/32

GregSingh
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by GregSingh » 02 Jun 2014 10:04

Thanks for your help with those numbers. I appreciate it.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

RichTO90
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by RichTO90 » 02 Jun 2014 12:25

GregSingh wrote:Thanks for your help with those numbers. I appreciate it.
No problem, I can give you a more complete breakdown by types if you need.

Gooner1
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Re: Locomotive production of USA/GB

Post by Gooner1 » 02 Jun 2014 15:35

UK production of Steam locomotives from 'Fighting with Figures'

Year - Main line types/Industrial types

1940 - 272/84
1941 - 234/110
1942 - 350/110
1943 - 797/58
1944 - 1050/45
1945 - 754/43

Total - 3457/450

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