Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
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stg 44
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Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by stg 44 » 23 Dec 2015 20:40

How important was Moscow to the Soviet economy? Was it's loss survivable? How much and what kind of manufacturing was sited there and was it really as important as the historiography of Operation Barbarossa makes out? David Glantz and several other historians say that the USSR would have kept fighting had it been lost in 1941, but were it lost would it make that much of a difference if the Soviets opted to fight on if it were economically crippled as a result of the loss?

GregSingh
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by GregSingh » 23 Dec 2015 22:54

German map of Moscow from June 1941 has location of more that 200 factories in the area of 6 x 6 km.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

Art
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by Art » 24 Dec 2015 11:53

stg 44 wrote:How much and what kind of manufacturing was sited there and was it really as important as the historiography of Operation Barbarossa makes out?
Counting suburbs three of the largest Soviet aircraft factories and several smaller, one of the largest artillery factory, one factory producing light tanks, one of the two major Soviet automobile factories. Most aircraft production was moved to other places in 1941, the tank factory No.38 was evacuated to Sverdlovsk as well.

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stg 44
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by stg 44 » 24 Dec 2015 18:01

GregSingh wrote:German map of Moscow from June 1941 has location of more that 200 factories in the area of 6 x 6 km.
Got a link to that map?
Art wrote:
stg 44 wrote:How much and what kind of manufacturing was sited there and was it really as important as the historiography of Operation Barbarossa makes out?
Counting suburbs three of the largest Soviet aircraft factories and several smaller, one of the largest artillery factory, one factory producing light tanks, one of the two major Soviet automobile factories. Most aircraft production was moved to other places in 1941, the tank factory No.38 was evacuated to Sverdlovsk as well.
Do you have any reading to recommend on that?

steverodgers801
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by steverodgers801 » 25 Dec 2015 06:59

IT would have put a big dent in soviet capacity and manpower, but it would not have finished the Soviets off as long as Stalin was in power.

Art
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by Art » 25 Dec 2015 09:11

stg 44 wrote: Do you have any reading to recommend on that?
Info on Soviet automotive industry and ZIS factory in particular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZiL
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... es.htm#ZIS
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=158313

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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by GregSingh » 26 Dec 2015 10:26

stg 44 wrote: Got a link to that map?
No, have a scan only, not sure where it came from... Are you after locations or names? I can OCR names easily I think.
Point is I don't know exactly how many of these actually were still there in late 1941, quite possibly majority was evacuated to the East.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by paulrward » 27 Dec 2015 05:04

Hello Mr. Stg44 ;

The attached map of the Soviet Rail System in 1940, and of what that system would look like if Moscow had fallen into German hands makes it clear that, without Moscow, the Soviets would have had great difficulty in continuing the war.

In effect, everything that went to the front went through Moscow, and if you lost Moscow, the various sections of the Russian Front would be isolated from supplies, fuel, ordnance, and manpower reinforcements. They would wither on the vine, and the Germans wouldn't stop until they got to the Urals.

Respectfully ;

Paul R. Ward

Soviet Rail System 1940.jpg
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GregSingh
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by GregSingh » 27 Dec 2015 07:04

The attached map of the Soviet Rail System in 1940, and of what that system would look like if Moscow had fallen into German hands makes it clear that, without Moscow, the Soviets would have had great difficulty in continuing the war.
When I look at attached map I can't see why this statement has to be true. There are still many links from East to West which could be used after fall of Moscow. As a matter of fact those maps don't show several important North - South links east of Moscow.
Surely Moscow was important communication hub, but it's fall wouldn't make situation much worse at all.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

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stg 44
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by stg 44 » 27 Dec 2015 17:28

Art wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Do you have any reading to recommend on that?
Info on Soviet automotive industry and ZIS factory in particular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZiL
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... es.htm#ZIS
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=158313
Thanks. For the armchair general link where does it say where each plant is located?

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stg 44
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by stg 44 » 27 Dec 2015 17:29

GregSingh wrote:
stg 44 wrote: Got a link to that map?
No, have a scan only, not sure where it came from... Are you after locations or names? I can OCR names easily I think.
Point is I don't know exactly how many of these actually were still there in late 1941, quite possibly majority was evacuated to the East.
I just wanted to see the map, perhaps if I pm my email could you send it to me?

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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by GregSingh » 29 Dec 2015 07:54

We got lucky. The map I was talking about covers only inner suburbs.
There is another map of outer suburbs with even more political and economic places of interest!
And both are here: http://igrek.amzp.pl/result.php?cmd=id& ... &cat=TPRUS. Large files!
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

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stg 44
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by stg 44 » 29 Dec 2015 16:28

GregSingh wrote:We got lucky. The map I was talking about covers only inner suburbs.
There is another map of outer suburbs with even more political and economic places of interest!
And both are here: http://igrek.amzp.pl/result.php?cmd=id& ... &cat=TPRUS. Large files!
Thanks for the link, but it seems the maps don't work for me

GregSingh
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by GregSingh » 29 Dec 2015 22:25

Just checked the site, works fine.
These are large files, so you won't be able to view them in a browser. Try downloading them to hard drive first.
I use MS Office Picture manager to view, Windows Photo Gallery can't open them.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR

Post by Leo Niehorster » 31 Dec 2015 10:09

Thanks, Greg.
Two good 1940 Moscow maps, and in German!
Only minus is the cut-off sides with the place key.
Leo
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