Importance of Moscow to the USSR
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
For the area northwest of Moscow it does. Having 2 one direction rail lines once Moscow is gone is pretty rough to supply it. Its not fatal for the south, but its not pleasant to lose it.
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
I agree that losing Moscow probably means losing the area North and North-West of it, but then that's not going to deliver the death blow to the USSR. Apart from the LL ports, there's little of value up there, as well as little population.
Regards,
KDF
Regards,
KDF
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
I mean there is the Tikhvin bauxite mining area. But the political fallout from losing Moscow and Leningrad and Murmansk, probably Archangelesk too would all be very damaging to Stalin and may result in a coup if he's still alive. Then there is the issue of losing the Moscow communications exchange, which AFAIK was the heart of the system. Its loss would make land line communication very difficult.KDF33 wrote:I agree that losing Moscow probably means losing the area North and North-West of it, but then that's not going to deliver the death blow to the USSR. Apart from the LL ports, there's little of value up there, as well as little population.
Regards,
KDF
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
Well, even if there's a coup, whoever succeeds Stalin will not make peace, given that the Germans plan on exterminating the Russians. I don't see any scenario in which the USSR capitulates.
Do you know how much bauxite came from the Tikhvin area? I was completely unaware of it!
Regards,
KDF
Do you know how much bauxite came from the Tikhvin area? I was completely unaware of it!
Regards,
KDF
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
http://www.mindat.org/locentry-107471.htmlKDF33 wrote:Well, even if there's a coup, whoever succeeds Stalin will not make peace, given that the Germans plan on exterminating the Russians. I don't see any scenario in which the USSR capitulates.
Do you know how much bauxite came from the Tikhvin area? I was completely unaware of it!
Regards,
KDF
No idea how much there was.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/96 ... -9608.html
Hitler wouldn't have accepted a surrender if he was winning:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/96 ... -9608.html
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
stg 44
The information is from 1942 not 1941 sorry.
"Determination of Fighting Strength USSR" Vol 1. the Central industrial region includes Moscow, the information is on page 41.
https://www.caja-pdf.es/2016/01/07/figh ... er-ussr-1/
Edit... your last link is a duplicated from your second link. could you put the correct link please? I am interested.
The information is from 1942 not 1941 sorry.
"Determination of Fighting Strength USSR" Vol 1. the Central industrial region includes Moscow, the information is on page 41.
https://www.caja-pdf.es/2016/01/07/figh ... er-ussr-1/
Edit... your last link is a duplicated from your second link. could you put the correct link please? I am interested.
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
I can't edit the last post, but this is what I was trying to post:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_Moun ... i_planning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_Moun ... i_planning
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
Here is General Thomas' assessment of the economic importance of various regions of the USSR on October 2, 1941:
https://history.army.mil/html/books/104 ... 104-21.pdf
The Germans succeeded in capturing most of the territory described in items 1 and 2, but, contrary to Thomas' assessment, the Soviet Union proved more than capable of waging war west of the Urals.
https://history.army.mil/html/books/104 ... 104-21.pdf
The Germans succeeded in capturing most of the territory described in items 1 and 2, but, contrary to Thomas' assessment, the Soviet Union proved more than capable of waging war west of the Urals.
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
You do realize he said the Moscow-Tula-Leningrad areas including the cities, right? Those cities were the key prizes and they never fell. Kandalakasha was also the Murmansk region and that didn't fall either. So at least half of the major industrial prizes he mentioned weren't taken historically, so I don't know where you get off claiming the majority of the territory described in item 1 alone were taken. Item 2 was only half taken, as Maikop didn't fall in 1941 and was only lost for a relatively short period of time. LL also threw that calculation off as well. This quote really only says if all that falls in 1941, not 1941-42 and with LL. He is correct that had that been taken the USSR would have economically collapsed, but historically most of that wasn't achieved in 1941 and even in 1942 it wasn't even fully achieved and by then LL was kicking in. Still per Mark Harrison the USSR's economy was on the brink of collapse by Autumn 1942 and it was only the offensive successes of late 1942 that saved them.historygeek2021 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2021 04:44Here is General Thomas' assessment of the economic importance of various regions of the USSR on October 2, 1941:
Thomas Oct 2 1941 economic survey.png
https://history.army.mil/html/books/104 ... 104-21.pdf
The Germans succeeded in capturing most of the territory described in items 1 and 2, but, contrary to Thomas' assessment, the Soviet Union proved more than capable of waging war west of the Urals.
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
Kandalaksha was never going to fall because Churchill and FDR put the fear of God into the Finns about endangering the lend-lease routes. The Finns were not going to go to war with the UK and USA (the UK declared war but it was essentially nominal, since the Finns stopped their advance).
But as this is a thread about Moscow, let's see some evidence for the economic importance of that city to the USSR ...
But as this is a thread about Moscow, let's see some evidence for the economic importance of that city to the USSR ...
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
It’s literally been explained by multiple posts with citations, including this very page?historygeek2021 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2021 17:27Kandalaksha was never going to fall because Churchill and FDR put the fear of God into the Finns about endangering the lend-lease routes. The Finns were not going to go to war with the UK and USA (the UK declared war but it was essentially nominal, since the Finns stopped their advance).
But as this is a thread about Moscow, let's see some evidence for the economic importance of that city to the USSR ...
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
There's no factual information in this thread except a few random anecdotes about factories here and aluminum there, and some unsourced railway maps.History Learner wrote: ↑03 Apr 2021 17:42It’s literally been explained by multiple posts with citations, including this very page?historygeek2021 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2021 17:27Kandalaksha was never going to fall because Churchill and FDR put the fear of God into the Finns about endangering the lend-lease routes. The Finns were not going to go to war with the UK and USA (the UK declared war but it was essentially nominal, since the Finns stopped their advance).
But as this is a thread about Moscow, let's see some evidence for the economic importance of that city to the USSR ...
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
Here is THE map about Soviet rail lines in 1941:historygeek2021 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2021 18:13There's no factual information in this thread except a few random anecdotes about factories here and aluminum there, and some unsourced railway maps.History Learner wrote: ↑03 Apr 2021 17:42It’s literally been explained by multiple posts with citations, including this very page?historygeek2021 wrote: ↑03 Apr 2021 17:27Kandalaksha was never going to fall because Churchill and FDR put the fear of God into the Finns about endangering the lend-lease routes. The Finns were not going to go to war with the UK and USA (the UK declared war but it was essentially nominal, since the Finns stopped their advance).
But as this is a thread about Moscow, let's see some evidence for the economic importance of that city to the USSR ...
https://kresy-siberia.org/hom/element/e ... -map-1941/
Notice Moscow is the hub of the high capacity double line routes.
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Re: Importance of Moscow to the USSR
Re the the idea that taking Moscow cuts Leningrad down to a single rail line - not specifically mentioned in this thread but frequently stated - the idea is demonstrably false:




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"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942
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"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942