Lendlease

Discussions on the economic history of the nations taking part in WW2, from the recovery after the depression until the economy at war.
User avatar
Groscurth
Member
Posts: 387
Joined: 12 Sep 2003 03:36

Post by Groscurth » 18 Sep 2004 20:20

While I was talking with a guy about lend lease, he gave me these numbers..
I've been looking at axis history forum for other numbers since they seem a bit overrated like the ones where he says that the US delivered 13.000.000 pairs of winterboots before the winter of 1941 and 65% of the motorised capability where land lease (on Feldgrau I saw that it was about 25% but the guy did not gave sources).

Did the Soviets had like he says a complete Division equiped with Shermans that had the 76mm canon?, so wich one?, I know there where Shermans and Lee Grants aso but used in that concentration? Did they receive more then 60% of the vehicle fuel by this. I know that the route to Murmansk brought the Soviets a lot but I can not see this amount of fuel, while they had their own sources. I find that their are some mistakes about those numbers but I am not that specialised to have the correct ones, can any one help me to see it more clear? And was the T-34 debveloped from American armour, did not see that on Axis history before, that is why I ask you specialists.

Thank you very much in advance.


I had this reply from my friend:

I've never heard of the Soviet Union paying back their Lend-Lease debt, a deal was made to trade an equivacal amount of Soviet grain, but it fell apart. Britain has been paying her's back for the past 64 years, the last payment is already part of the 2005 budget, it is the last time it will have to be made (They were given 31,000,000,000 in Lend Lease, of which 75% was considered "donated" and did not have to be paid back). It's not that the Soviets have refused, just we never worked out terms.

As for it's impact,


Lend-Lease
Everyone likes to downplay this, but just to show you how critical it was to the Soviets
Almost all of the Soviet Unions high-grade fuel came from the United States (You know, the stuff that makes the airplanes go)
13,000,000 pairs of felt winter boots built to Soviet designs for the Red Army, the Germans would have died for these during 1941-42. This kept the Soviet feet from freezing like the Whermacht's
The massive destruction caused by Barborassa entailed a loss of rolling stock and locomotives, and those that were not lost were busy shipping factories to the Urals and Siberia. These losses were made good by the US, which supplied 2,000 locomotives and 11,000 rail wagons, which not only made good the losses, but increased Soviet rail capacity, along with that came 3,000,000 tons of gasoline, and 540,000 tons of fresh rail (used to increase the Soviet Rail Network).
427,000 Trucks and 51,000 Jeeps - Scoff at this number, but it represents 65% of the Soviet motorized capabilities, the large proportion of them 2 1/2 ton Dodge trucks, which effectively carried everything the Soviets needed. The Soviets only were able to produce the massive numbers of armour becuase they did not have to produce trucks, the US supplied them. During the war, the word studebaker became synonomous with truck in the Soviet Union. Trucks were needed not only for supply (the Germans had failed largely becuase they didn't have enough), and the Soviets desperately needed them, they often outran their supply lines during their massive offensives, but also for battles. Without these trucks, the Soviet Operation Doctrine of "Deep-in" Offensive tactics would fail, and the Soviets would have floundered in White Russia. Soviet Offensive doctrine stipulated a massive armour attack would be exploited by fast moving infantry (ie. infantry carried by trucks) who would exploit that gap and widen it, Blitzkreig on a far larger scale. Without American trucks, the Soviets would not have enough to supply themselves and use this offensive tool.
7,000 Tanks - Most Western Armour was not wanted or needed by the Soviets, until the introduction of the 76mm variant of the Sherman, these tanks were loved by the Soviets who used them, and an entire Tank Corps was outfitted solely with the 76mm Sherman (There is a famous picture of a Soviet Tank in Vienna, the tank is a Sherman).
15,000 Aircraft - Soviet Aircraft were always subpar in the opening years (except the IL-2 Sturmovik, but it was a divebomber and ground attack plane, not a fighter), so the Soviets made good with what they had, which was a hell of a lot of P-39's, the aircraft the first Soviet aces made their names in. These aircraft were obviously replaced as the war drag on, but they were invaluable for the first year, when most of the Red Air Force was destroyed on the ground.
5,000,000 tons of Food from American Agriculture - In other words, enough food to feed every single Soviet Soldier with 1/2 pound of concentrated rations each day of the war.

Now for some percentages, to highlight the fact, the source for these percentages are two books, The Role of Lend-Lease In Soviet Military Operations: 1941-1945 by Boris V. Sokolov, and Marshal Zhukov himself.

80% of all canned meat
92% of all locomotives, rail stock, and rail material
57% of all Aviation Fuel
53% of all Explosives (you know, the stuff needed to make ammunition)
74% of all Truck Transport (This is a general figure from the war)
88% of all Radio Equipment
75% of all Copper
56% of all Aluminum
60+% of all Vehicle Fuel
74% of all Vehicle Tires
12% of all Armoured Vehicles (not just tanks, also tank destroyers, SP artillery, and halftracks)
14% of all Combat Aircraft

Not mentioned in this list is also high-grade steel (almost exclusively sent by the US), used to create tanks, medical supplies, and almost every type of machine tool used by Soviet Industry (along with the know-how to use it) - Paraphrased from Marshal Zhukov


Other things the Americans did that drained German resources
75% of 88mm guns were trained upwards towards American (and British) bombers, not facing Russian tanks.
2,000,000 German soldiers were involved in the defense of the Reich against the Allied Bombing Offensive (admittedly, after '43 these were not frontline or even second rate troops)
75% of all German Aircraft were tied down trying to stop the Bombing Offensive
20% of all Artillery ammunition went to AA defense against the Bombing Offensive





Thank you for an answer,

Groscurth

User avatar
Lord Gort
Member
Posts: 2014
Joined: 07 Apr 2002 14:44
Location: United Kingdom: The Land of Hope and Glory

Post by Lord Gort » 19 Sep 2004 00:07

Britain also sent huge supplies to the Soviet Union, although obviosuly no where near the US contribution.



While I cant speak on the spectacular winter battles of 1941, I can say that in the summer of 1940, Britain fought and won the battle of Britain with her own resources and her own money.


Lend lease was important, the complete justice of the actual system is questionable (see thread "Was America fair?" by yours truly) but it shouldnt detract too much from other far more crucial events.

regards,

User avatar
Groscurth
Member
Posts: 387
Joined: 12 Sep 2003 03:36

Post by Groscurth » 19 Sep 2004 01:14

Thank you very much, Lord Gort for the info in the other thread.

User avatar
Kunikov
Member
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 19:23

Post by Kunikov » 19 Sep 2004 05:50

Those percentages don't tell the whole story, and Sokolov isn't one of the better Russian sources to use.

Steady
Member
Posts: 436
Joined: 07 Aug 2004 20:45
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Post by Steady » 19 Sep 2004 12:14

15,000 Aircraft - Soviet Aircraft were always subpar in the opening years (except the IL-2 Sturmovik, but it was a divebomber and ground attack plane, not a fighter), so the Soviets made good with what they had, which was a hell of a lot of P-39's, the aircraft the first Soviet aces made their names in. These aircraft were obviously replaced as the war drag on, but they were invaluable for the first year, when most of the Red Air Force was destroyed on the ground.


Actually, Lend-Lease aircraft were more important than that. The first shipments consisted of older British models, mainly Hurricanes. Those aircraft were inferior to the current German planes. Compared to Soviet models they were still passable and were fully utililzed. Later during the war the Americans supplied Soviets with better quality aircraft, for example the bigger portion of the P-39 Airacobra production and almost all of the Kingcobras were supplied to Soviets, who used them until the end of the war and beyond.

As an interesting sidenote, many of the lend lease aircraft were actually not used against Germans but Finns, since Finland was close to Murmansk, the major harbour used for sea supply.


Some Lend-Lease figures:

http://www.geocities.com/ojoronen/LENDLSE.HTM


Some American aircraft types were simply irreplaceable and very highly appreciated on all levels during the war, e.g. P-39 Airacobra fighters, A-20 Boston and B-25 Mitchell bombers and C-47 transport aircraft.

from
http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/eng ... veries.htm

more about Lend-Lease aircraft in SU

http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/eng ... /index.htm

User avatar
maxxx
Member
Posts: 1743
Joined: 29 Apr 2004 18:14
Location: austria

Post by maxxx » 19 Sep 2004 20:44

The US lost less than 2% of the deathtoll of the USSR in WWII. Why? Because of 13 millions of winter boots and some other goodies. And they got paid for it anyway, even if it took quite a while. Sounds like a good deal....

Steady
Member
Posts: 436
Joined: 07 Aug 2004 20:45
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Post by Steady » 19 Sep 2004 21:07

No they were not paid, at least not with money. Soviets were supposed to pay with grain, they stopped deliveries using anti-soviet economic sanctions as an excuse.

from
http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/eng ... veries.htm

According to the lend-lease agreements all weapon systems delivered were to be returned to USA after cessation of hostilities or destroyed under American supervision. A big number of aircraft (also including recent deliveries of P-39s, P-63s and P-47s) were in fact destroyed by bulldozers - much to the amaze of on-looking Soviet soldiers. Many naval vessels were returned to USA in the late 1940s, but a big number of lend-lease aircraft were still in use in Russia in the early 1950s. The unsettled lend-lease accounts are still - after almost 50 years - disturbing American-Russian relations.

Darrin
Member
Posts: 831
Joined: 17 Apr 2002 10:44
Location: Canada

Post by Darrin » 20 Sep 2004 04:35

Groscurth wrote:
Did the Soviets had like he says a complete Division equiped with Shermans that had the 76mm canon?, so wich one?, I know there where Shermans and Lee Grants aso but used in that concentration?





After 41 the rus mech and tank divs disappered as did the big mech corps they belonged to. From 42 onwards the basic building block that would be equivalent to div was the mech and tank corps. In late 45 the rus had 14 mech corps they were considered the elite of the rus elite. Mainly because they had much better all arms capbility the tank corps were tank heavy everything else light in comparison. 9 of the 14 were guard mech corps the best of the best. 3 of the 9 guard mech corps the elite of the elite were equiped entrily with shermans. One had previously been equipped with with T34-85s and was totally reequipped with shermans.

About half of the 4000 shermans sent to the rus were equippped with 76mm guns. It seems extremly likly one of these three guard mech corp were equiped with 76mm shermans.

User avatar
Groscurth
Member
Posts: 387
Joined: 12 Sep 2003 03:36

Post by Groscurth » 21 Sep 2004 18:19

Darrin wrote:

. One had previously been equipped with with T34-85s and was totally reequipped with shermans.



Are you sure about that? Unless a T34-85 is destroyed, I don't see a good reason to replace it with a 76mm Sherman, since I think that the general quality of the T34-85 is better.

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 06:39
Location: Philippines

5,000,000 tons

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 19 Apr 2014 11:02

Siegfried Wilhelm wrote:"As for the Lend-Lease Act, the numbers I have are these: 45,000 "Willy's" jeeps, 29,000 motorcycles, 29,000 locomotives, 12,536 tanks, 17,834 airplanes, 130,500 automatic weapons, 240,000 tons of explosives and ammunition, 13,200 revolvers, 2.5 million tons of petrol and other war materials...34 million uniforms; sewn with Singer sewing machines in the good ol' U.S.A.!
I need this one. Thanks !
Last edited by nebelwerferXXX on 20 Apr 2014 04:50, edited 1 time in total.

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 06:39
Location: Philippines

Made in USA

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 19 Apr 2014 11:30

Groscurth wrote:'...13.000.000 pairs of winter boots before the winter of 1941...2,000 locomotives and 11,000 rail wagons...3,000,000 tons of gasoline, and 540,000 tons of fresh rail...427,000 Trucks and 51,000 Jeeps...7,000 Tanks...15,000 Aircraft...5,000,000 tons of Food from American Agriculture...'
Good data/info...thanks !

ljadw
Member
Posts: 10391
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Lendlease

Post by ljadw » 19 Apr 2014 19:41

He means :before the winter of 1945. 8-)

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 06:39
Location: Philippines

7 December 1941

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 20 Apr 2014 02:34

Good job ! The USA by then was not yet at war with Japan before the winter of 1941...

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 06:39
Location: Philippines

Jeeps

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 30 Apr 2014 05:46

Siegfried Wilhelm wrote:'...45,000 "Willis" jeeps...'
'...45,000 Willys Jeeps...'

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 06:39
Location: Philippines

Lend-Lease...

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 05 May 2014 05:39

The cost of USA Lend-Lease to Britain, the USSR & others was $ 42-billion...

Return to “Economy”