Fw 200 Condor brake system

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phylo_roadking
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Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 Feb 2009 02:04

Splitted from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=149204
/Juha
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Was just looking around the Net when I found THIS pic of the FIRST Lufthansa Fw200 landing in New York...

Image

Look carefully in where I've put the circle - see the guy with the FIRE EXTINGUISHER running up to the port landing gear??? :lol:

The Condor had a problem with badly designed brake hubs; the actuating cams would over-centre and thus the brakes would lock ON and the linings catch fire!!! 8O

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Juha Tompuri
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Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Apr 2009 07:36

Splitted from here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 2&start=15
/Juha

CharlesRollinsWare wrote: Hope this is of interest.
Of very much, thank you.
phylo_roadking wrote:A further weakness in the Condor was a very poor design of brakes in the main undercarriage wheels; brakes had a habit of locking on when last used, or overnight - and the aircraft could next roll under power with the brakes not fully realeased, leading to overheating and the brake shoe linings bursting into flame...before being raised into the inboard engine nacelles! This bad design of the brake actuating cams meant that they could very easily seize and burn on landing; this happened to Hitler's aircraft when it landed in Finland when he flew there to celebrate Mannerheim's birthday. In surviving newsreel footage of the events, as Hitler is greeted on the apron, you can see smoke billowing from his personal Condor's wheels, and a Luftwaffe "black man" dashing in with a fire extinguisher!
IIRC it was the brake fluid that burned at the case Hitler visiting Mannerheim:
The drum brakes jammed at the landing, causing the brake assembly being torn off and began revolving with the wheel. That caused the brake hoses being torn broke and brake fluid being flown on the hot brakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrW0VgF5iWc ( landing 2.20, and Finnish mechanics with fire extinguisher )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqpnDzNxMN8 (wheel on fire 1.40)


Regards, Juha

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phylo_roadking
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Re: CAM Ship Fighters

Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Apr 2009 19:12

The drum brakes jammed at the landing
As mentioned. The problem was the profile of the actuating cams - they over-centred and didn't always release the pressure on the brake surfaces.
IIRC it was the brake fluid that burned at the case Hitler visiting Mannerheim:....That caused the brake hoses being torn broke and brake fluid being flown on the hot brakes.
Have you a source for this?

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Re: CAM Ship Fighters

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Apr 2009 21:00

phylo_roadking wrote:Have you a source for this?
Father of a friend of mine repaired the brakes in question.
The veteran has passed away, but I'll check the things from my friend.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Apr 2009 20:48

I contacted to my friend and he rememberd the things his father had told him, pretty the same way as I did.
Only difference being that he remembered the brakes being disc brake type (the saddle being torn off instead of the drum assembly).

He hinted of two sources where his father is mentioned.
The other is a veteran book written by Pertti Kilkki:
Toivo K. wrote:A.H. visted Mannrheim's birthday 040642. The plane decended from the side of Rautiokylä, and was nowhere near the Kaukopää factory chimney, as often is claimed.
At landing the plane had to brake so hard that the left front wheel got jammed, the same problem being occured earlier too.
I had to fix it, turn the bolts to there (Toivo K. being professional turner, JT)
A German asked from what material I would use, and I presented two options, chrome-nickel and chrome-nickel-vanadium.
The German then choosed the material and I made the bolts
Regards, Juha
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Re: Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Apr 2009 21:02

The other source being newspaper Valkealan Sanomat:
Toivo K. wrote:Immola had both a long and a short runway. For some reason the plane landed to the shorter one, having to brake hard.
The brakes got stuck, bolts and brakepipes "exploded". There was a small fire, flames reaching at least a meter high.
Finns, helped by Germans put the fire out quickly.
Hitler acted as he wouldn't notice the event at all, Toivo K remembers.
The bolt stubs were brought to me to be repaired. I can't speak German, but we looked together at the material catalogue, and so we proceeded.
As I worked, the German officers watch behind my back.
The plane was fixed during that day, as Hitler left home the same day
Regards, Juha
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Re: Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Dec 2010 20:55

phylo_roadking wrote:Image

Look carefully in where I've put the circle - see the guy with the FIRE EXTINGUISHER running up to the port landing gear??? :lol:
More than a good eyesight, a vivid imagination seems to be more helpful there.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Dec 2010 21:02

phylo_roadking wrote:
The Condor had a problem with badly designed brake hubs; the actuating cams would over-centre and thus the brakes would lock ON and the linings catch fire!!!
See first at 2.27-8 as Hitler walks past the smoking brake hub on the port undercarriage...



...then at 2.28-30 the officer immediately behind Hitler's right shoulder gestures to the problem...the camera turns away from the problem - but at 2.36-2.38 you can see two groundcrew running in and back out of camera shot between Hitler and Ryti with extinguishers.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1538186
The Condor had a problem with badly designed brake hubs; the actuating cams would over-centre and thus the brakes would lock ON and the linings catch fire
Origin(s) of these claims?

Regards, Juha

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Origin(s) of these claims?

Post by Dave Bender » 16 Dec 2010 23:41

I think they refer to one of the original Fw200 prototypes. It had a landing accident in the Philippines.

A brake problem discovered on the original prototype should have been corrected for the production aircraft.

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Re: Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by phylo_roadking » 17 Dec 2010 00:00

I think they refer to one of the original Fw200 prototypes. It had a landing accident in the Philippines.
Er....no - for the Philippines incident was the Condor in question running out of fuel and ditching AT SEA!
A brake problem discovered on the original prototype should have been corrected for the production aircraft.
Pity it stayed around then to affect other aircraft than your "prototype", Dave.....from http://www.danishww2pilots.dk -
Despite the outbreak of war, Danish Airlines manages to keep up service on London (Croydon, later Shoreham) and on Berlin. On 8 April 1940, Emil Damm is supposed to take one of Danish Airlines’ two Focke-Wulf Fw 200 “Condor” to London. Since it is his birthday, Harald Julius Hansen fills in his place in the roster, so Damm can celebrate with his family. Therefore, it is Harald Hansen who arrives in London in Fw 200A-02 (OY-DAM "Dania") on the eve of the German occupation of Denmark. The aircraft had been in the company’s service since 4 July 1937.
The very next morning, the German troops cross the Danish borders. In Shoreham, the aircraft was taken over by the Secretary of State for Air and registered as G-AGAY. [3]
The crew of four, Harald Hansen, mechanic Jørgen Dalbro, wireless operator Uffe Jensen and air hostess Doris Jensen, was detained in Britain. Detained were also ground mechanic, later Flight Lieutenant Henning Pedersen and head of the London office, later Flight Lieutenant Vagn Christensen.
B.O.A.C. and A.T.A.
In a 1957 issue of Flight (12.4.1957), former British Overseas Air Corporation director A.J. Quin-Harkin reveals that the crew was employed by the corporation in May 1940. Harald Hansen was given seniority appropriate to his earlier position in DDL. At a later date, Harald Hansen transfers to the Air Transport Auxiliary where he looses his life in an accident in July 1941.
The aircraft too is transferred to B.O.A.C and named “Wolf”. According to an article in Flight (15.3.1957) the aircraft is used for short freight hauls, usually provided with a fighter escort. But it is not without difficulties to fly a German four engines aircraft in the British skies. On 9 January 1941 the aircraft is handed over to the Royal Air Force and given the serial number DX177.
According to Cheesman (1945) the aircraft is transferred to White Waltham in August 1941. As the aircraft is piloted by Harald Hansen, the actual date must be no later than early July, though. Contrary to the Flight article Cheesman reports that the aircraft was no use had been made of the aircraft from the time it was taken over and until it was handed over to the A.T.A. At White Waltman the aircraft is intended for the training of pilots on four-engined aircraft.
At the end of the day the aircraft is never used as intended as the maintenance is regarded as too difficult. On 12 July 1941, three weeks after the arrival, Harald Hansen is allowed to take it into the air for a test-flight. He runs into a severe thunderstorm, but during the landing the brakes fail and the aircraft is damaged beyond economical repair.


EDIT - just been doing some more checking; and Hitler didn't fly in Immelmann III to Immola on that occcasion, he was using the VIP-converted C-3 KE+IX. Two other aircraft were also converted for Hitler's use, CE+IB werknummer 137 and CE + IC werknummer 138.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 17 Dec 2010 01:26, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by phylo_roadking » 17 Dec 2010 00:14

I contacted to my friend and he rememberd the things his father had told him, pretty the same way as I did.
Only difference being that he remembered the brakes being disc brake type (the saddle being torn off instead of the drum assembly).
Juha, definitely drums on the Fw200...see the brake surface?

Image
Image

I imagine the brake servos were on a plate that bolted onto that central hub; I'm guessing the "bolts" you mentioned were for the four boltholes you can see there. The hydraulic feeds to the servos were banjo'd to the INSIDE plate of the wheel hubs...
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Re: Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by Dave Bender » 17 Dec 2010 00:40

The aircraft had been in the company’s service since 4 July 1937.
The Fw200 first flew during July 1937. Did the Danish airline purchase the original prototype?

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Re: Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by phylo_roadking » 17 Dec 2010 01:00

No, Fw 200A-02 (OY-DAM "Dania") was the second of the A-series 4th to 9th pre-production aircraft, making it the fifth Condor built. It did have the single wheel undercart as of 1938 at least...

Image

...but Hitler's LATER KE + IX that he flew to Finland in on that famous occasion certainly had been built with
the upgraded twin wheel setup as we've seen - and yet still had the brake seizure issue...

Image

....it was a C-3. The F.d.F. actually operated a total of 13 Condors during the war years.
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Re: Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by phylo_roadking » 17 Dec 2010 01:49

P.S. Dave -
I think they refer to one of the original Fw200 prototypes. It had a landing accident in the Philippines.

A brake problem discovered on the original prototype should have been corrected for the production aircraft.
Image

...IF it had got as far as the runway!
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Re: Fw 200 Condor brake system

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 Dec 2010 08:22

Juha Tompuri wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:The Condor had a problem with badly designed brake hubs; the actuating cams would over-centre and thus the brakes would lock ON and the linings catch fire
Origin(s) of these claims?
Any progress in revealing the sources of these claims?

Regards, Juha

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