Italian AA Guns
Re: Italian AA Guns
Hi shultz,
In the book "Historia de la Artilleria Antiaerea Española Vol.I" there is this image.
Sorry for the quality. I don`t have scaner
In the book is said that at least 8 pieces of 100/47 OTO Mod.1928 arrived to Spain during the Civil War.
4 of them were mounted on Baleares heavy cruiser temporarily, replacing the 120mm Vickers provided for in its design.
Probably these pieces were disembarked later, before his sinking
Is seems that the the remaining pieces were emplaced in Mallorca island.
Sturm78
In the book "Historia de la Artilleria Antiaerea Española Vol.I" there is this image.
Sorry for the quality. I don`t have scaner
In the book is said that at least 8 pieces of 100/47 OTO Mod.1928 arrived to Spain during the Civil War.
4 of them were mounted on Baleares heavy cruiser temporarily, replacing the 120mm Vickers provided for in its design.
Probably these pieces were disembarked later, before his sinking
Is seems that the the remaining pieces were emplaced in Mallorca island.
Sturm78
Re: Italian AA Guns
Hi Sturm, thanks for the photograph.
I looked for photos of the cruiser Baleares, and all of them show 4 single antiaircraft guns on each side, without shields. So very similar to those of our photos.
But they are not 100/47 OTO 1928, because this is only a twin cannon; also the site artillerianaval.es is wrong, puts a photo of the museum of La Spezia where in the center you can see a 100/47 OTO 1938 (non-anti-aircraft, always single) and on the right a 100/47 OTO 1928 (anti-aircraft, always twin) I believe that the 100/47 OTO 1928 was never sent to Spain, and that those sent are all 100/43 (recognizable by the two small plates on the sides of the barrel).
Finally, I put a photo of an Italian 100/47 OTO 1928 "in action" (for comparison). Regards
Shultz
I looked for photos of the cruiser Baleares, and all of them show 4 single antiaircraft guns on each side, without shields. So very similar to those of our photos.
But they are not 100/47 OTO 1928, because this is only a twin cannon; also the site artillerianaval.es is wrong, puts a photo of the museum of La Spezia where in the center you can see a 100/47 OTO 1938 (non-anti-aircraft, always single) and on the right a 100/47 OTO 1928 (anti-aircraft, always twin) I believe that the 100/47 OTO 1928 was never sent to Spain, and that those sent are all 100/43 (recognizable by the two small plates on the sides of the barrel).
Finally, I put a photo of an Italian 100/47 OTO 1928 "in action" (for comparison). Regards
Shultz
Re: Italian AA Guns
Well, i found another two photos of this gun , always Spain .
RegardsRe: Italian AA Guns
Hi shultzshultz wrote
I believe that the 100/47 OTO 1928 was never sent to Spain, and that those sent are all 100/43 (recognizable by the two small plates on the sides of the barrel).
Well, it is very possible that you are right. I really, never had seen no image of the 100/43.
According to this website http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_Main.php the only 100/43 gun was the Mod.1927 for submarines... but I suppose that this is wrong...
It is very difficult to find any image of the cruiser Baleares where you can see in detail its anti-aircraft artillery, which seems to have been changed often...shultz wrote
I looked for photos of the cruiser Baleares, and all of them show 4 single antiaircraft guns on each side, without shields. So very similar to those of our photos.
Sturm78
Re: Italian AA Guns
Hi sturm, I have better compared all the images of the cruiser Baleares found on the internet, and it is really not possible to define which artillery is present on the sides of the ship.Sturm78 wrote: ↑15 May 2020, 16:45Hi shultzshultz wrote
I believe that the 100/47 OTO 1928 was never sent to Spain, and that those sent are all 100/43 (recognizable by the two small plates on the sides of the barrel).
Well, it is very possible that you are right. I really, never had seen no image of the 100/43.
According to this website http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_Main.php the only 100/43 gun was the Mod.1927 for submarines... but I suppose that this is wrong...
It is very difficult to find any image of the cruiser Baleares where you can see in detail its anti-aircraft artillery, which seems to have been changed often...shultz wrote
I looked for photos of the cruiser Baleares, and all of them show 4 single antiaircraft guns on each side, without shields. So very similar to those of our photos.
Sturm78
Furthermore, often the photographs of the cruiser Canarias (same class) are passed off as those of the Baleares (they are distinguished by a different shape of the mouth of the smokestack, with an upward curve in the Baleares).
I think that in the absence of new information this will remain a mystery.
For the 100/43, this is a drawing of the "100/43 OTO antiaereo" taken from the site www.anb-online.it and is very similar to our photos
and this is the 100/43 for submarines (from Naval weapons of WW2 of J. Campbell) and two photos from the net (possibly axishistoryforum..) Regards.
Re: Italian AA Guns
Thanks for the aditional images, shultz.
Do you know if the 100/43 OTO AA gun sent to Spain had any model number designation?
Sturm78
Do you know if the 100/43 OTO AA gun sent to Spain had any model number designation?
Sturm78
Re: Italian AA Guns
Hi Sturm, I go by exclusion: both the books "Le armi delle navi Italiane, E. Bagnasco 1978" and "Naval weapons of WW2, J. Campbell 1985" say that the O.T.O. in 1924 built a 100/43 gun for submarines deriving it from the 100/47 Skoda 1910 (10cm L50 M10 Skoda).
They also say that this gun was unsuccessful and was therefore redesigned as 100/43 Mod. 1927 (this also non very successful) .
Neither book puts photographs of the Mod. 1924, while Campbell puts a drawing of the Mod. 1927 and Bagnasco puts a photograph of the Mod. 1927: this gun has a small breech and several cylinders above the breech, and the trunnions are distant from the end of the breech and does not allow antiaircraft shooting. Then on the ANB-online.it website I found this drawing, which is called 100/43 OTO 1927 antiaircraft. It is a gun very different from the other: the breech is a large parallelepiped containing the brake cylinders, and the trunnions are close to the breech to allow anti-aircraft fire.
This is the drawing, and apart from the shield it looks like our photographs. This should be the type of cannon sent to Spain, I think the Italian fascist regime would have thus found a way to get rid of an unsuccessful gun and therefore built in a few pieces. Then wikipedia and recent books on the Spanish war made them become 100/47, while more documented books speak of 100/43 (La defensa de Mallorca, Rodriguez Saiz & Rodriguez Amador 2015).
Now I don't know: this could be the famous 100/43 Mod. 1924, or it is in any case a different model from that for submarines and we could call it 100/43 Mod. 1927 antiaircraft.
To increase confusion, remember that the O.T.O. factory is called so only from 1929, before it was Vickers Terni (from 1905 to 1928) and so the official abbreviation of the Italian Royal Navy would be 100/43 V.T. 19 …
In short, I think the only important thing is to know that this gun exists. I think that with the return to normal life after the pandemic, this autumn I will be able to do extensive research in La Spezia on the original documents of the Regia Marina, and then I will be able to tell you better (not only on this gun...)
Regards, shultz
P.S. A recent book "OTO Melara 1905-2005, by Pignato / Rastelli / Cappellano 2005" speaks only vaguely of 100/43 without drawings and photos, but the part of the “naval artillery” is written by A. Rastelli who is not as reliable as Pignato and Cappellano who are authors of the “land part” of the book. Instead the book of Bagnasco is a book "must have" and has been reprinted identical recently.
Regards, shultz
Re: Italian AA Guns
Thanks for your information, shultz
It appears to be a quite rare gun and manufactured in very limited quantities, so I suppose it will be difficult to find information about it.
Regards
Sturm78
It appears to be a quite rare gun and manufactured in very limited quantities, so I suppose it will be difficult to find information about it.
Regards
Sturm78
Re: Italian AA Guns
I thought that way but i am not sure now due to a picture you posted in Italian coast gun, note that the 152 you posted here: viewtopic.php?f=70&t=166653&start=285To increase confusion, remember that the O.T.O. factory is called so only from 1929, before it was Vickers Terni (from 1905 to 1928) and so the official abbreviation of the Italian Royal Navy would be 100/43 V.T. 19 …
Note the both naming present in the gun: Vickers Terni La Spezia 1923 - now what is below: 152/50 A 1918
A from Armstrong so we have a gun made on an Armstrong pattern build by Vickers-Terni in La Spezia which will later be O.T.O. So build by VT but still named as A.
Re: Italian AA Guns
Hi Dili, sorry but I was three days without internet.Dili wrote: ↑18 May 2020, 22:31I thought that way but i am not sure now due to a picture you posted in Italian coast gun, note that the 152 you posted here: viewtopic.php?f=70&t=166653&start=285To increase confusion, remember that the O.T.O. factory is called so only from 1929, before it was Vickers Terni (from 1905 to 1928) and so the official abbreviation of the Italian Royal Navy would be 100/43 V.T. 19 …
Note the both naming present in the gun: Vickers Terni La Spezia 1923 - now what is below: 152/50 A 1918
A from Armstrong so we have a gun made on an Armstrong pattern build by Vickers-Terni in La Spezia which will later be O.T.O. So build by VT but still named as A.
Now, "152/50 A.1918 gun" means: "152/50 Modello Armstrong 1918", i.e. Armstrong Pozzuoli project adopted in 1918.
This cannon in particular was built by Vickers Terni in La Spezia in 1923, the same as in the original design and therefore without changing the initials or the year.
The Armstrong of Pozzuoli went into crisis after the end of WW1, and did not resume producing cannons until the 1930s after being absorbed by Ansaldo.
On the other hand, at the request of the Italian government, Vickers Terni / OTO often produced cannons from other companies, 76/40 Armstrong and 305/17 Armstrong in WW1, and Ansaldo 75/46 and 90/53 in WW2.
Regards. Shultz
Re: Italian AA Guns
Hi shultzshultz wrote
Hi, only recently I realized that this photograph, taken from the book of Cappellano "L'artiglieria contraerei Italiana sino al 1943", portrays the same cannon that appears in a post by Tristan-gereon of 21-2-2013 in " Id. naval guns ”, which had not been identified then.
It is a 20 mm Scotti-Isotta Fraschini twin gun, on a carriage built in 1938 in a few copies for the Regia Aeronautica Italiana (it looks like 50 "complexes", ie carriage complete with 2 guns).
The guns are rotated 90°to the right , the feeding is with the 12-shot strip magazines which are inserted from the top downwards.
Do you have information about the different models developed for the Scotti Isotta-Fraschini 20mm cannon and the different carriages-mounts used?
The following models are mentioned in the book "Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale" of F. Cappellano:
20mm Scotti Mod.1938 su affusto carrellato campale (Image 1)
20mm Scotti su affusto navale a punteria vincolata (image 2) ???
20mm Scotti su affusto fiso a piedestallo a puntamento libero
20mm Scotti Mod.1939 (image 2)
20mm Scotti Mod.1941 ??
20mm Scotti su affusto binata (I suposse image that you posted on 13 May 2020 althought in the mentionated book is a Regia Marina model)
....
The image 3 used a different pedestal respect to image 2.
Sturm78
Re: Italian AA Guns
Hi Sturm, also for me the Scotti cannons are complicated enough to identify with confidence.Sturm78 wrote: ↑23 May 2020, 17:03Hi shultzshultz wrote
Hi, only recently I realized that this photograph, taken from the book of Cappellano "L'artiglieria contraerei Italiana sino al 1943", portrays the same cannon that appears in a post by Tristan-gereon of 21-2-2013 in " Id. naval guns ”, which had not been identified then.
It is a 20 mm Scotti-Isotta Fraschini twin gun, on a carriage built in 1938 in a few copies for the Regia Aeronautica Italiana (it looks like 50 "complexes", ie carriage complete with 2 guns).
The guns are rotated 90°to the right , the feeding is with the 12-shot strip magazines which are inserted from the top downwards.
Do you have information about the different models developed for the Scotti Isotta-Fraschini 20mm cannon and the different carriages-mounts used?
The following models are mentioned in the book "Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale" of F. Cappellano:
20mm Scotti Mod.1938 su affusto carrellato campale (Image 1)
20mm Scotti su affusto navale a punteria vincolata (image 2) ???
20mm Scotti su affusto fiso a piedestallo a puntamento libero
20mm Scotti Mod.1939 (image 2)
20mm Scotti Mod.1941 ??
20mm Scotti su affusto binata (I suposse image that you posted on 13 May 2020 althought in the mentionated book is a Regia Marina model)
....
The image 3 used a different pedestal respect to image 2.
Sturm78
First, the definition Model 1938, 1939 and 1941 relates only to the cannon without the mounting.
Second, all three models have been mounted on the same mountings.
Third, the three models are practically identical, and only the Mod. 1941 is distinguished by a modification to the gas intake on the barrel.
Fourth, Mod. 1938 and Mod. 1939 were mainly produced by Isotta Fraschini (a large company owned by Caproni), while Mod. 1941 was mainly produced by O.M. Of Brescia (a company owned by FIAT).
Well, this is Model 1938 or 1939 and this is Model OM 1941 (in the photo the soldier is inserting a full magazine on the wrong side of the cannon!). Origin of photos is Axishistoryforum, Fortifications, artillery & rockets.
The second photo also lacks part of the aiming system, the attacks remain.
Regards, Shultz
Re: Italian AA Guns
Hi, now i'm trying to put images of the types of carriage for the 20mm Scotti (the models 1938, 1939 and 1941 all of wich has left lateral strip alimentation.
1, single field carriage with wheels 2, single naval and land pedestal carriage, with “punteria vincolata" (layer and trainer mechanism) 3, single land pedestal carriage, "libero puntamento" (free or swinging aiming) 4, twin naval carriage, with "punteria vincolata", this is the same as for the Breda '35 and was used also on land 5, everything else that had wheels, the Scotti was mounted on trucks, boats and more, with every type of carriage. Regards, Shultz
1, single field carriage with wheels 2, single naval and land pedestal carriage, with “punteria vincolata" (layer and trainer mechanism) 3, single land pedestal carriage, "libero puntamento" (free or swinging aiming) 4, twin naval carriage, with "punteria vincolata", this is the same as for the Breda '35 and was used also on land 5, everything else that had wheels, the Scotti was mounted on trucks, boats and more, with every type of carriage. Regards, Shultz
Re: Italian AA Guns
Thank you very much for your assistant, shultz
I suppose that the image 4 (twin mount) is the same mount that those you posted on 13 May 2020 (post 119).
You said that this mount was in use with Regia Aeronautica but your image 4 is labelled as Regia Marina....
On the other hand, I have this image of a 20mm Scotti in a totally different mount. Any idea ?
Regards
Sturm78
I suppose that the image 4 (twin mount) is the same mount that those you posted on 13 May 2020 (post 119).
You said that this mount was in use with Regia Aeronautica but your image 4 is labelled as Regia Marina....
On the other hand, I have this image of a 20mm Scotti in a totally different mount. Any idea ?
Regards
Sturm78
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Re: Italian AA Guns
Hi Sturm,Sturm78 wrote: ↑26 May 2020, 17:56Thank you very much for your assistant, shultz
I suppose that the image 4 (twin mount) is the same mount that those you posted on 13 May 2020 (post 119).
You said that this mount was in use with Regia Aeronautica but your image 4 is labelled as Regia Marina....
On the other hand, I have this image of a 20mm Scotti in a totally different mount. Any idea ?
Regards
Sturm78
my photo 4, type "binato navale a punteria vincolata" is the one whose design I put now, it has been produced for the Royal Italian Navy in a good number of specimens . Look for a picture of the Breda '35 twin naval and compare them. The twin carriage of a previous post of mine, on the other hand, is always "binato a punteria vincolata" but was built for the Royal Italian Air Force. It uses the Mod. 1939 guns which are arranged turned 90 ° in the vertical plane, so that the loading strips are inserted from above. All the guns Mod. 1938, 1939, 1941 are loaded with metal strips of 12 shots inserted from the left (I'll put a photo for clarification); all use the 20x138B cartridge like Breda '35 and the German Rheinmetall 20mm cannons. Your photograph instead portrays one of the many prototypes built in the 1930s to participate in Italian competitions. These prototypes used the Oerlikon 20x110 RB cartridge and even the same magazines of the Oerlikon, 30-round old type drum and slightly arched box of 15 rounds. These magazines are inserted from above as in the Oerlikon. I'll put you two pictures of the Milan Fair of 1935, where you can see the two types of magazine. (Ing. Scotti collaborated with Oerlikon in the 1930s) The drawing is taken from "Le armi delle navi Italiane, E. Bagnasco", the photos are taken from the internet.
Regards, Shultz