Italian AA Guns

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
Sturm78
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by Sturm78 » 14 May 2020 19:17

Hi shultz,

In the book "Historia de la Artilleria Antiaerea Española Vol.I" there is this image.
Sorry for the quality. I don`t have scaner

In the book is said that at least 8 pieces of 100/47 OTO Mod.1928 arrived to Spain during the Civil War.
4 of them were mounted on Baleares heavy cruiser temporarily, replacing the 120mm Vickers provided for in its design.
Probably these pieces were disembarked later, before his sinking

Is seems that the the remaining pieces were emplaced in Mallorca island.

Sturm78
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shultz
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by shultz » 15 May 2020 14:22

Hi Sturm, thanks for the photograph.
I looked for photos of the cruiser Baleares, and all of them show 4 single antiaircraft guns on each side, without shields. So very similar to those of our photos.
But they are not 100/47 OTO 1928, because this is only a twin cannon; also the site artillerianaval.es is wrong, puts a photo of the museum of La Spezia where in the center you can see a 100/47 OTO 1938 (non-anti-aircraft, always single) and on the right a 100/47 OTO 1928 (anti-aircraft, always twin)
from artilleria.es.PNG
La Spezia 100-47 OTO 1938 e 100-47 OTO 1928 da tripadadvisor.jpg
La Spezia breech of 100-47 OTO 1938.jpg
La Spezia breech of 100-47 OTO 1928 da tripadvisor.jpg
I believe that the 100/47 OTO 1928 was never sent to Spain, and that those sent are all 100/43 (recognizable by the two small plates on the sides of the barrel).
Finally, I put a photo of an Italian 100/47 OTO 1928 "in action" (for comparison).
100-47 OTO 1928 da Istituto Luce.jpg
Regards
Shultz
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shultz
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by shultz » 15 May 2020 14:30

Well, i found another two photos of this gun , always Spain .
100-43 OT AA Spagna2.jpg
100-43 OT AA Spagna forse Baleari.jpg
Regards
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Sturm78
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by Sturm78 » 15 May 2020 15:45

shultz wrote
I believe that the 100/47 OTO 1928 was never sent to Spain, and that those sent are all 100/43 (recognizable by the two small plates on the sides of the barrel).
Hi shultz

Well, it is very possible that you are right. I really, never had seen no image of the 100/43.
According to this website http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_Main.php the only 100/43 gun was the Mod.1927 for submarines... :? but I suppose that this is wrong...
shultz wrote
I looked for photos of the cruiser Baleares, and all of them show 4 single antiaircraft guns on each side, without shields. So very similar to those of our photos.
It is very difficult to find any image of the cruiser Baleares where you can see in detail its anti-aircraft artillery, which seems to have been changed often...

Sturm78

shultz
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by shultz » 16 May 2020 20:47

Sturm78 wrote:
15 May 2020 15:45
shultz wrote
I believe that the 100/47 OTO 1928 was never sent to Spain, and that those sent are all 100/43 (recognizable by the two small plates on the sides of the barrel).
Hi shultz

Well, it is very possible that you are right. I really, never had seen no image of the 100/43.
According to this website http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNIT_Main.php the only 100/43 gun was the Mod.1927 for submarines... :? but I suppose that this is wrong...
shultz wrote
I looked for photos of the cruiser Baleares, and all of them show 4 single antiaircraft guns on each side, without shields. So very similar to those of our photos.
It is very difficult to find any image of the cruiser Baleares where you can see in detail its anti-aircraft artillery, which seems to have been changed often...

Sturm78
Hi sturm, I have better compared all the images of the cruiser Baleares found on the internet, and it is really not possible to define which artillery is present on the sides of the ship.
Furthermore, often the photographs of the cruiser Canarias (same class) are passed off as those of the Baleares (they are distinguished by a different shape of the mouth of the smokestack, with an upward curve in the Baleares).
I think that in the absence of new information this will remain a mystery.
For the 100/43, this is a drawing of the "100/43 OTO antiaereo" taken from the site www.anb-online.it
100-43 OTO AA.jpg
and is very similar to our photos
and this is the 100/43 for submarines (from Naval weapons of WW2 of J. Campbell)
100-43 OTO 1927.jpg
and two photos from the net (possibly axishistoryforum..)
100-43 OTO.jpg
100-43 OT 1927 su Atropo.jpg
Regards.
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Sturm78
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by Sturm78 » 17 May 2020 10:45

Thanks for the aditional images, shultz.

Do you know if the 100/43 OTO AA gun sent to Spain had any model number designation?

Sturm78

shultz
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by shultz » 18 May 2020 09:35

Sturm78 wrote:
17 May 2020 10:45
Thanks for the aditional images, shultz.

Do you know if the 100/43 OTO AA gun sent to Spain had any model number designation?

Sturm78
Hi Sturm, I go by exclusion: both the books "Le armi delle navi Italiane, E. Bagnasco 1978" and "Naval weapons of WW2, J. Campbell 1985" say that the O.T.O. in 1924 built a 100/43 gun for submarines deriving it from the 100/47 Skoda 1910 (10cm L50 M10 Skoda).
They also say that this gun was unsuccessful and was therefore redesigned as 100/43 Mod. 1927 (this also non very successful) .
Neither book puts photographs of the Mod. 1924, while Campbell puts a drawing of the Mod. 1927 and Bagnasco puts a photograph of the Mod. 1927: this gun has a small breech and several cylinders above the breech, and the trunnions are distant from the end of the breech and does not allow antiaircraft shooting.
100-43%20OTO%201927.jpg
100-43 OTO 1927 da Bagnasco Armi navi Italiane.jpg
Then on the ANB-online.it website I found this drawing, which is called 100/43 OTO 1927 antiaircraft. It is a gun very different from the other: the breech is a large parallelepiped containing the brake cylinders, and the trunnions are close to the breech to allow anti-aircraft fire.
This is the drawing, and apart from the shield it looks like our photographs.
100-43%20OTO%20AA.jpg
100-43%20OT%20AA%20Spagna2.jpg
A.A. O.T.O.jpg
This should be the type of cannon sent to Spain, I think the Italian fascist regime would have thus found a way to get rid of an unsuccessful gun and therefore built in a few pieces. Then wikipedia and recent books on the Spanish war made them become 100/47, while more documented books speak of 100/43 (La defensa de Mallorca, Rodriguez Saiz & Rodriguez Amador 2015).
Now I don't know: this could be the famous 100/43 Mod. 1924, or it is in any case a different model from that for submarines and we could call it 100/43 Mod. 1927 antiaircraft.
To increase confusion, remember that the O.T.O. factory is called so only from 1929, before it was Vickers Terni (from 1905 to 1928) and so the official abbreviation of the Italian Royal Navy would be 100/43 V.T. 19 …
In short, I think the only important thing is to know that this gun exists. I think that with the return to normal life after the pandemic, this autumn I will be able to do extensive research in La Spezia on the original documents of the Regia Marina, and then I will be able to tell you better (not only on this gun...)
Regards, shultz
P.S. A recent book "OTO Melara 1905-2005, by Pignato / Rastelli / Cappellano 2005" speaks only vaguely of 100/43 without drawings and photos, but the part of the “naval artillery” is written by A. Rastelli who is not as reliable as Pignato and Cappellano who are authors of the “land part” of the book. Instead the book of Bagnasco is a book "must have" and has been reprinted identical recently.
Regards, shultz
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Sturm78
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by Sturm78 » 18 May 2020 10:48

Thanks for your information, shultz
It appears to be a quite rare gun and manufactured in very limited quantities, so I suppose it will be difficult to find information about it.

Regards
Sturm78

Dili
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by Dili » 18 May 2020 21:31

To increase confusion, remember that the O.T.O. factory is called so only from 1929, before it was Vickers Terni (from 1905 to 1928) and so the official abbreviation of the Italian Royal Navy would be 100/43 V.T. 19 …
I thought that way but i am not sure now due to a picture you posted in Italian coast gun, note that the 152 you posted here: viewtopic.php?f=70&t=166653&start=285

Note the both naming present in the gun: Vickers Terni La Spezia 1923 - now what is below: 152/50 A 1918
A from Armstrong so we have a gun made on an Armstrong pattern build by Vickers-Terni in La Spezia which will later be O.T.O. So build by VT but still named as A.

shultz
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by shultz » 21 May 2020 15:12

Dili wrote:
18 May 2020 21:31
To increase confusion, remember that the O.T.O. factory is called so only from 1929, before it was Vickers Terni (from 1905 to 1928) and so the official abbreviation of the Italian Royal Navy would be 100/43 V.T. 19 …
I thought that way but i am not sure now due to a picture you posted in Italian coast gun, note that the 152 you posted here: viewtopic.php?f=70&t=166653&start=285

Note the both naming present in the gun: Vickers Terni La Spezia 1923 - now what is below: 152/50 A 1918
A from Armstrong so we have a gun made on an Armstrong pattern build by Vickers-Terni in La Spezia which will later be O.T.O. So build by VT but still named as A.
Hi Dili, sorry but I was three days without internet.
Now, "152/50 A.1918 gun" means: "152/50 Modello Armstrong 1918", i.e. Armstrong Pozzuoli project adopted in 1918.
This cannon in particular was built by Vickers Terni in La Spezia in 1923, the same as in the original design and therefore without changing the initials or the year.
The Armstrong of Pozzuoli went into crisis after the end of WW1, and did not resume producing cannons until the 1930s after being absorbed by Ansaldo.
On the other hand, at the request of the Italian government, Vickers Terni / OTO often produced cannons from other companies, 76/40 Armstrong and 305/17 Armstrong in WW1, and Ansaldo 75/46 and 90/53 in WW2.
Regards. Shultz

Sturm78
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by Sturm78 » 23 May 2020 16:03

shultz wrote
Hi, only recently I realized that this photograph, taken from the book of Cappellano "L'artiglieria contraerei Italiana sino al 1943", portrays the same cannon that appears in a post by Tristan-gereon of 21-2-2013 in " Id. naval guns ”, which had not been identified then.

It is a 20 mm Scotti-Isotta Fraschini twin gun, on a carriage built in 1938 in a few copies for the Regia Aeronautica Italiana (it looks like 50 "complexes", ie carriage complete with 2 guns).
The guns are rotated 90°to the right , the feeding is with the 12-shot strip magazines which are inserted from the top downwards.
Hi shultz

Do you have information about the different models developed for the Scotti Isotta-Fraschini 20mm cannon and the different carriages-mounts used?

The following models are mentioned in the book "Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale" of F. Cappellano:

20mm Scotti Mod.1938 su affusto carrellato campale (Image 1)
20mm Scotti su affusto navale a punteria vincolata (image 2) ???
20mm Scotti su affusto fiso a piedestallo a puntamento libero
20mm Scotti Mod.1939 (image 2)
20mm Scotti Mod.1941 ??
20mm Scotti su affusto binata (I suposse image that you posted on 13 May 2020 althought in the mentionated book is a Regia Marina model)
....

The image 3 used a different pedestal respect to image 2. :?

Sturm78
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shultz
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by shultz » 24 May 2020 14:52

Sturm78 wrote:
23 May 2020 16:03
shultz wrote
Hi, only recently I realized that this photograph, taken from the book of Cappellano "L'artiglieria contraerei Italiana sino al 1943", portrays the same cannon that appears in a post by Tristan-gereon of 21-2-2013 in " Id. naval guns ”, which had not been identified then.

It is a 20 mm Scotti-Isotta Fraschini twin gun, on a carriage built in 1938 in a few copies for the Regia Aeronautica Italiana (it looks like 50 "complexes", ie carriage complete with 2 guns).
The guns are rotated 90°to the right , the feeding is with the 12-shot strip magazines which are inserted from the top downwards.
Hi shultz

Do you have information about the different models developed for the Scotti Isotta-Fraschini 20mm cannon and the different carriages-mounts used?

The following models are mentioned in the book "Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale" of F. Cappellano:

20mm Scotti Mod.1938 su affusto carrellato campale (Image 1)
20mm Scotti su affusto navale a punteria vincolata (image 2) ???
20mm Scotti su affusto fiso a piedestallo a puntamento libero
20mm Scotti Mod.1939 (image 2)
20mm Scotti Mod.1941 ??
20mm Scotti su affusto binata (I suposse image that you posted on 13 May 2020 althought in the mentionated book is a Regia Marina model)
....

The image 3 used a different pedestal respect to image 2. :?

Sturm78
Hi Sturm, also for me the Scotti cannons are complicated enough to identify with confidence.
First, the definition Model 1938, 1939 and 1941 relates only to the cannon without the mounting.
Second, all three models have been mounted on the same mountings.
Third, the three models are practically identical, and only the Mod. 1941 is distinguished by a modification to the gas intake on the barrel.
Fourth, Mod. 1938 and Mod. 1939 were mainly produced by Isotta Fraschini (a large company owned by Caproni), while Mod. 1941 was mainly produced by O.M. Of Brescia (a company owned by FIAT).
Well, this is Model 1938 or 1939
20-70 Scotti IF 38 or Scotti IF 39.JPG
and this is Model OM 1941 (in the photo the soldier is inserting a full magazine on the wrong side of the cannon!).
20-70 Scotti OM 41.jpg
Origin of photos is Axishistoryforum, Fortifications, artillery & rockets.
The second photo also lacks part of the aiming system, the attacks remain.
Regards, Shultz
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shultz
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by shultz » 24 May 2020 15:15

Hi, now i'm trying to put images of the types of carriage for the 20mm Scotti (the models 1938, 1939 and 1941 all of wich has left lateral strip alimentation.
1, single field carriage with wheels
20mm%20Scotti%201.jpg
2, single naval and land pedestal carriage, with “punteria vincolata" (layer and trainer mechanism)
20mm%20Scotti%20on%20M1939%20pedestal%20mount%202.jpg
3, single land pedestal carriage, "libero puntamento" (free or swinging aiming)
20-70 Scotti su affusti a libero puntamento.png
4, twin naval carriage, with "punteria vincolata", this is the same as for the Breda '35 and was used also on land
20-70 IF aff RM Livorno 42.jpg
5, everything else that had wheels, the Scotti was mounted on trucks, boats and more, with every type of carriage.
20-70 Scotti FORSE su Alfa Romeo 430.jpg
Regards, Shultz
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Sturm78
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by Sturm78 » 26 May 2020 16:56

Thank you very much for your assistant, shultz

I suppose that the image 4 (twin mount) is the same mount that those you posted on 13 May 2020 (post 119).
You said that this mount was in use with Regia Aeronautica but your image 4 is labelled as Regia Marina.... :?

On the other hand, I have this image of a 20mm Scotti in a totally different mount. Any idea ?

Regards
Sturm78
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shultz
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Re: Italian AA Guns

Post by shultz » 27 May 2020 17:14

Sturm78 wrote:
26 May 2020 16:56
Thank you very much for your assistant, shultz

I suppose that the image 4 (twin mount) is the same mount that those you posted on 13 May 2020 (post 119).
You said that this mount was in use with Regia Aeronautica but your image 4 is labelled as Regia Marina.... :?

On the other hand, I have this image of a 20mm Scotti in a totally different mount. Any idea ?

Regards
Sturm78
Hi Sturm,
my photo 4, type "binato navale a punteria vincolata" is the one whose design I put now, it has been produced for the Royal Italian Navy in a good number of specimens . Look for a picture of the Breda '35 twin naval and compare them.
20 Scotti-IF Mod. 1939 on RM twin naval carriage.jpg
The twin carriage of a previous post of mine, on the other hand, is always "binato a punteria vincolata" but was built for the Royal Italian Air Force. It uses the Mod. 1939 guns which are arranged turned 90 ° in the vertical plane, so that the loading strips are inserted from above.
20200513.jpg
All the guns Mod. 1938, 1939, 1941 are loaded with metal strips of 12 shots inserted from the left (I'll put a photo for clarification); all use the 20x138B cartridge like Breda '35 and the German Rheinmetall 20mm cannons.
20-70 IF primav 42 39969.jpg
Your photograph instead portrays one of the many prototypes built in the 1930s to participate in Italian competitions. These prototypes used the Oerlikon 20x110 RB cartridge and even the same magazines of the Oerlikon, 30-round old type drum and slightly arched box of 15 rounds. These magazines are inserted from above as in the Oerlikon. I'll put you two pictures of the Milan Fair of 1935, where you can see the two types of magazine. (Ing. Scotti collaborated with Oerlikon in the 1930s)
20 IF 1935-2.jpg
20 IF 1935-3.jpg
The drawing is taken from "Le armi delle navi Italiane, E. Bagnasco", the photos are taken from the internet.
Regards, Shultz
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