4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

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jopaerya
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by jopaerya » 22 Dec 2020 11:45

From Ebay
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jopaerya
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by jopaerya » 03 May 2021 16:33

Could this be the Böhler/Hemburg for in the Dutch casemate ?? ( Photo = Ebay )

Regards Jos
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JKernwerk
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by JKernwerk » 03 May 2021 18:28

Yes Jos it is!
Very nice picture.
Greetings Jack.

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kfbr392
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by kfbr392 » 03 May 2021 21:24

sitalkes wrote:
11 Jul 2017 00:33
How many of these guns did Germany capture when it took over Austria?
366, plus 153 on order.
source: Austrian artillery inventory, March 1938:
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nuyt
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 04 May 2021 10:27

JKernwerk wrote:
03 May 2021 18:28
Yes Jos it is!
Very nice picture.
Greetings Jack.
No it's the Hembrug 5cm, derived from the HIH Siderius 5cm casemate gun.
There was no Bohler/Hembrug, just Bohlers or Hembrugs :)

There were Bohlers in licence production under AI Hembrug auspices at Johan de Witt in Dordrecht, but these were finished by Hembrug after 1940 and were not casemate guns, but field AT. These were sent to Italy.

jopaerya
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by jopaerya » 04 May 2021 10:50

Thanks Arnoud

For the correction , I put it there but there are similarity with the Böhler in my opinion.

Regards Jos

nuyt
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 05 May 2021 15:47

They look very much alike Jos,
it's the little differences though, like Vincent (our man in Amsterdam) said.

See here:
https://3dfort.wordpress.com/home/kanon ... emat-no-2/

And
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jopaerya
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by jopaerya » 05 May 2021 18:27

Thanks Nuyt :thumbsup: nice work from Sander

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VRIL7
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by VRIL7 » 06 May 2021 21:06

Hello.
nuyt wrote:
04 May 2021 10:27
but these were finished by Hembrug after 1940 and were not casemate guns, but field AT. These were sent to Italy.
Are you sure?
Here is a photo of HIH Siderius 5cm AT, which seems to have been taken before the occupation of Holland:
Last edited by VRIL7 on 07 May 2021 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
Regards
Andriy

nuyt
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 06 May 2021 21:13

Yes I am sure.
I was not talking about that one.

Millsy
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by Millsy » 07 May 2021 11:58

are we saying that there was supposed to be a casemate/turret version of the 47mm bohler to be deployed by the dutch, i saw something about an armoured turret ?

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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by JKernwerk » 07 May 2021 14:42

Millsy wrote:
07 May 2021 11:58
are we saying that there was supposed to be a casemate/turret version of the 47mm bohler to be deployed by the dutch, i saw something about an armoured turret ?
Yes, The Bohler PAG was to be used in a Pagkoepel (ATGturret) but these were only planned in the "Nieuwe Betonplan" (a plan to strengthen the Dutch fortifications with an double amount of pillboxes -2500 were already built and another 2500 were only planned to be built till October 1940-) There are two examples left of the turret.
Most new pillboxes were planned to be built in the Grebbelinie, this was the new main fortification position in the new plans to defend the Netherlands, before the new plans this main line of resistance was the Nieuwe Hollandse Waterlinie, but the NHW was to far inland.
The Grebbelinie as we now know it had no depth in the fortificationline but with the new plans this was about to change but due to the German attack on The Netherlands, Belgium and France only some armorparts were ready and no pillboxes (of new better, bigger, stronger and more expensive designs) were built.
These two were found in the 80's or 90's in Wassenaar at a German bunkercomplex that was also used as a Coldwar HQ for the Dutch Airforce.
They are both in museums today, one at Vught (Geniemuseum) and one at Soesterberg (Nederlands Militair Museum).
Greetings jack.

nuyt
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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 07 May 2021 16:48

Interesting! Were these the cupola's ordered from Cockerill in BE believe?

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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by nuyt » 07 May 2021 18:00

Re the above question and answer. As one can find earlier in this thread the Bohler PAGs that were to arm the casemates were regular mobile guns. I do not think there was a real casemate version planned or existing. Dedicated casemate guns were the AI Hembrug Kanon van 5 No 2.

But there may be persistent confusion here. AFAIK & IMHO there were four different weapons:

- Kanon van 5 Kazemat No 1 (5cm L50 HIH Siderius, 8 pieces made in the early 1930s, these were mobile weapons used in the Afsluitdijk fortresses and at least one in Roermond);

- Kanon van 5 Kazemat No 2 (5cm L50 AI Hembrug, about 60 pieces made from the mid 30s, these were fixed weapons, operated by KPT - the small standing force of Politietroepen);

- Kanon van 4,7 PAG Bohler ( the Bohler ATG as built and supplied in the hundreds by Bohler in Austria in the late 1930s;

- an order for 400 Kanons van 4,7 PAG under Bohler licence by AI Hembrug and Johan de Witt in Dordrecht (Philips owned). Just one of these was ready by May 1940 and 100 were finished by AI Hemburg (not Johan de Witt) under German supervision. These licence produced guns (that were slightly different from the earlier Bohler supplied weapons) were to have Van Doorne (DAF) carriages and that company produced 100 carriages in the early years of the occupation. So just 100 of the AI Hembrug Bohlers were finished. These were sent to Italy along with the majority of Austrian Bohlers in Dutch service, seeing service in AT battalions 101-104.

Confused? There is more!

Survivors:

- Dutch Army museum exhibits one hybrid Kanon van 5, consisting of a Hembrug barrel of the No 2 and the carriage of the HIH Siderius No 1...!

- Overloon exhibits a navy grey Bohler 4,7 PAG on a naval mount. The barrel and breach appear Austrian, while the cradle looks more like that from the Kanon van 5 No 2. This could also be a hybrid and I have no more info on the gun.

- Dutch Army museum also exhibits a regular Austrian produced 4,7 PAG Bohler.

- Turin Artillery Museum holds a Bohler type PAG of Dutch origin with Van Doorne carriage (at least that's what is claimed - I have not seen it). This could be the only surviving AI Hembrug made Bohler 4,7cm PAG... !

So, please do not mix up the Kanon van 5 Kazemat No2 made by AI Hembrug with a Bohler: it looked similar but was not. AI Hembrug also designed a 5cm L42 in 1930, as one of the prototypes for the casemate guns. It appears overall that the HIH Siderius and Hembrug designs came earlier than the Bohler :)

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Re: 4,7 cm Böhler anti-tank gun

Post by JKernwerk » 07 May 2021 19:39

The PAGkazemat was indeed for a mobile gun.
I must have a drawing from the Dutch National Archives somewhere.
JK

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