8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

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Bully
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8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#1

Post by Bully » 26 May 2023, 16:26

I came across a partially detonated 8cm mortar marked with a Weißring or white ring.

Research with a bit of help and Wiki:

8-cm-Wurfgranate 34 Kh „Kammerhülse“ Weißring (Augenreizstoff CN), diese wurden jedoch nicht verfüllt

CN (tear gas) filled but it states "not filled" - source Fritz Hahn: Weapons and Secret Weapons of the German Army 1933-1945 (Volumes 1 and 2)

I'm trying to work out why they would fire a not filled projectile or were they issued not filled and then filled closer to the battle area?

Obviously a Geneva convention issue come to light but also why use tear gas rather than HE?

Any ideas much appreciated.

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AvB
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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#2

Post by AvB » 26 May 2023, 17:19

Where did you find it? Could it be used as zeroing in on a preset aiming point?


Bully
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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#3

Post by Bully » 26 May 2023, 17:35

Hi Arthur,

On a beach in Jersey, it was amongst probably hundreds of other 8cm's near a target point... I have found lots of Ub's too.

I'm curious as to why a tear gas mortar bomb was used...unless they had one unfilled and just used what they had..?

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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#4

Post by AvB » 27 May 2023, 08:58

Maybe that last one. Sufficient for target practice and zeroing in.

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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#5

Post by Bully » 27 May 2023, 12:28

Does anyone know where I can get more detail on if and how the mortar was filled with CN? thanks

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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#6

Post by ROLAND1369 » 27 May 2023, 15:34

[quote=Bully post_id=2474999 time=1685111188 user_id=53641]
I came across a partially detonated 8cm mortar marked with a Weißring or white ring.

Research with a bit of help and Wiki:

8-cm-Wurfgranate 34 Kh „Kammerhülse“ Weißring (Augenreizstoff CN), diese wurden jedoch nicht verfüllt

CN (tear gas) filled but it states "not filled" - source Fritz Hahn: Weapons and Secret Weapons of the German Army 1933-1945 (Volumes 1 and 2)

I'm trying to work out why they would fire a not filled projectile or were they issued not filled and then filled closer to the battle area?

Obviously a Geneva convention issue come to light but also why use tear gas rather than HE?

Any ideas much appreciated.
[/quote]

:Question of violation of Geneva convention on Gas CN(tear gas) falls under the category of "Riot Control Agents" and is exempted from this treaty. It was and still is legal to use.

Bully
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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#7

Post by Bully » 28 May 2023, 12:43

I disagree , its very debatable I'm afraid if you read here:

https://www.nti.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... ties_1.pdf

The US were widely criticized for using it in Vietnam and accused of breaking the Geneva Convention, that is in multiple news sources

". In 1930, during a discussion in Geneva, the United Kingdom had
asserted that the Geneva Protocol covered tear gas. In 1970, however, the British foreign
secretary stated in Parliament that, while this remained the British position, the riot control
agent CS (what the United States was using in Vietnam) was not harmful to humans, unlike
older tear gases, and therefore was not covered by the protocol. In the same year, the foreign
minister of Japan asserted during debate on ratification in the Japanese Diet that the
protocol did not cover tear gas and herbicides. Japan was the first militarily significant state
to ratify the protocol after the debate over its interpretation, and it did so with U.S. understanding as to its coverage"

Crowd control and war are 2 different things, tear gas is CS not CN which is more powerful and harmful.

The only reason its used today is that countries changed their own laws to allow cs gas to be used, so I would conclude use of tear gas in 1940 - 45 would indeed contravene the Geneva convention.

The other question remains as to why Hahn states they were unfilled...?

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Grzesio
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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#8

Post by Grzesio » 29 May 2023, 10:14

There are known examples of KC 250 chemical bombs being used as incendiary or smoke ones, with appropriate filling instead of chemical agent.
Perhaps it could be also the case with this 8 cm Wgr 34 Kh and it was used as a smoke or training projectile.

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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#9

Post by Thoddy » 29 May 2023, 12:04

Crowd control and war are 2 different things, tear gas is CS not CN which is more powerful and harmful.
Your wording is not unequivocally.

CN is less harmful compared to CS. CS had possible stronger sideffects leading to signs of intoxication and death.

Even when CN may not proscribed by Geneva its use in combat may reduce impediments for the use of true poison gases.

Its my opinion that Geneva is not clear enough to cover CN as poison gas. Its wording allows for an interpretion CN and other active ingredients with "special effects" being allowed.
"Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!"

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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#10

Post by Bully » 29 May 2023, 12:17

Thoddy wrote:
29 May 2023, 12:04
Crowd control and war are 2 different things, tear gas is CS not CN which is more powerful and harmful.
Your wording is not unequivocally.

CN is less harmful compared to CS. CS had possible stronger sideffects leading to signs of intoxication and death.

Even when CN may not proscribed by Geneva its use in combat may reduce impediments for the use of true poison gases.

Its my opinion that Geneva is not clear enough to cover CN as poison gas. Its wording allows for an interpretion CN and other active ingredients with "special effects" being allowed.
Neither is yours:

CS is a 10-times more potent lacrimator than CN but is less systemically toxic.

Note the LESS systemically toxic for CS over CN!

I think none of us are experts in this matter and clear information is sparse, my main question is why was it used during practice and if they were not filled according to Hahn, why not? and when were they filled and how?

Thanks for your reply, any information is appreciated.

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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#11

Post by Grzesio » 29 May 2023, 12:22

if they were not filled according to Hahn, why not?
I think, most probably because of problems and dangers caused by long term storage of live chemical ammunition.

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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#12

Post by Bully » 29 May 2023, 12:51

Grzesio wrote:
29 May 2023, 12:22
if they were not filled according to Hahn, why not?
I think, most probably because of problems and dangers caused by long term storage of live chemical ammunition.
Thanks, do you think they would have been filled on the front line by troops somehow?

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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#13

Post by Zünder » 29 May 2023, 16:31

I find it hard to believe that there were no 8 cm Wgr. 34 Ws filled.
Mainly because this shell is present in the D 435/5 manual “Handbuch der Farbringmunition des Heeres” which describes all the “Farbring”ammunition that was in the army’s inventory.
Looking at the army inventory lists from April 1943 right until march 1945 there are no 8 cm Weissring shell present.
To give an idea of the inventory:
November 1944
1413 tons of Weissring (Ws) available for filling
216.600 7,5 cm I.Gr. 18 Ws shells
403.900 10,5 cm F.H. Gr. Ws shells
130.900 15 cm 15 cm Gr. 19 Ws shells
But not a single 8 cm shot.
Personally i think that the absence of proof is no proof of absence.

Shells were not filled on the frontline, that’s what the Muna’s were for.

Best regards,

Zünder.

Bully
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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#14

Post by Bully » 29 May 2023, 18:18

Zünder wrote:
29 May 2023, 16:31
I find it hard to believe that there were no 8 cm Wgr. 34 Ws filled.
Mainly because this shell is present in the D 435/5 manual “Handbuch der Farbringmunition des Heeres” which describes all the “Farbring”ammunition that was in the army’s inventory.
Looking at the army inventory lists from April 1943 right until march 1945 there are no 8 cm Weissring shell present.
To give an idea of the inventory:
November 1944
1413 tons of Weissring (Ws) available for filling
216.600 7,5 cm I.Gr. 18 Ws shells
403.900 10,5 cm F.H. Gr. Ws shells
130.900 15 cm 15 cm Gr. 19 Ws shells
But not a single 8 cm shot.
Personally i think that the absence of proof is no proof of absence.

Shells were not filled on the frontline, that’s what the Muna’s were for.

Best regards,

Zünder.
Thank you, great info. I'm just trying to figure out why this 8cm was used and if it was filled! :-)

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Re: 8cm Mortar bomb - marked with Weißring

#15

Post by Zünder » 29 May 2023, 19:09

Bully wrote:
29 May 2023, 18:18
Zünder wrote:
29 May 2023, 16:31
I find it hard to believe that there were no 8 cm Wgr. 34 Ws filled.
Mainly because this shell is present in the D 435/5 manual “Handbuch der Farbringmunition des Heeres” which describes all the “Farbring”ammunition that was in the army’s inventory.
Looking at the army inventory lists from April 1943 right until march 1945 there are no 8 cm Weissring shell present.
To give an idea of the inventory:
November 1944
1413 tons of Weissring (Ws) available for filling
216.600 7,5 cm I.Gr. 18 Ws shells
403.900 10,5 cm F.H. Gr. Ws shells
130.900 15 cm 15 cm Gr. 19 Ws shells
But not a single 8 cm shot.
Personally i think that the absence of proof is no proof of absence.

Shells were not filled on the frontline, that’s what the Muna’s were for.

Best regards,

Zünder.
Thank you, great info. I'm just trying to figure out why this 8cm was used and if it was filled! :-)
What ever you do, make sure you preserve it.
It is a unique find, filled or not.
Do some research and see how to preserve saltwater finds.
For example: http://www.cawreckdivers.org/Preservation.htm

From my own experience: you might think you have a great specimen, half a year later you might have nothing left.
But, great find.
I've been collecting german ammunition for about 30 years and this is the first time i've seen a 8 cm weissring.

Best regards,

Zünder

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