4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

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simondodkins
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4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by simondodkins » 19 Jul 2006 15:43

Hi guys,

I am restoring an example of the ex-czech 4.7cm anti-tank gun as was installed in the Sudatenland and captured in 1938 by the Germans.

I know they were very impressed with the weapon and something like 40 were installed in Jersey.

I am looking for brass casings, shell heads, ammo boxes and any parts you may have.

Also, does anyone know the different types of ammunition the Germans used in this type of weapon?

I imagine there is High Explosive and Armour Piercing rounds but does anyone know anything else about them?

Thanks and regards,

Simon.

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tom!
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Post by tom! » 19 Jul 2006 16:59

Hi.

From the H.DV 435-1:

1. 4,7 cm Pzgr. Patr. 36 (t) with 4,7 cm Pzgr. 36 (t) using Bd. Z. 36 (t) and Bd. Z. PD 28 (t)
2. 4,7 cm Pzgr. Patr. 36 (t) umg. with 4,7 cm Pzgr. 35 (ö) umg. using Bd. Z. M 35 of the 4,7 cm Pzgr. 35
3. 4,7 cm Pzgr. Patr. (j) with 4,7 cm Pzgr. (j) using Bd. Z. P 56 (t)
4. 4,7 cm Sprgr. Patr. 36 (t) with 4,7 cm Sprgr. 36 (t) using A. Z. N 34 (t)


propellant charges:

1. 459 g Ngl. Str. P. M 36 (1 * 10/320)
2. 459 g Ngl. Str. P. M 36 (1 * 10/320)
3. 465 g Ngl. Str. P. M 36 (1 * 10/320)
4. 251 g Ngl. Str. P. M 36 (0,6 * 6/320)


Image


Image

Yours

tom! :wink:

M.Rausch
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Post by M.Rausch » 19 Jul 2006 17:32

There is one round missing, the 4,7 cm Pzgr. Patr. 40 (t).

ducatim901
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Post by ducatim901 » 19 Jul 2006 17:44

Did the 4,7cm FestungsPak (t) and the 4,7cm Pak (t), wich one are you restoring Simon??
I think simon means the FestungsPak.
Greetings Jack

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simondodkins
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Post by simondodkins » 19 Jul 2006 21:43

Tom...that is fantastic!! 1,000 thanks

ducatim I'm restoring the Millbrook casemate bunker in Jersey which the CIOS has. It has a 4.7 PAK 36 (t) in it. I do not know of any other designation for it and all my research points to it being a 4.7 PAK 36 (t).

However it was never meant to be a mobile gun and was only designed for a static position - so the designation "Festung" or Fortress gun is appropriate but I have never heard it called that.

I will post photos when I can.

Best regards,

Simon.

jopaerya
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Post by jopaerya » 19 Jul 2006 22:09

Hi All

As you can see on the first photo of Tom some rounds
are used also for the static 4,7 cm Pak K.36 (t) and also
for the mobile 4,7 cm Pak 36 (t) and 179 (j) , see the E
The 631b at Wn. Millbrook used the 4,7 cm Pak K.36 (t) .

Regards Jos
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RuPo
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Post by RuPo » 20 Jul 2006 06:52

Simon,
A time ago a Dutch collector made a lot of the grenades. I need to say very impressive and accurate. So accurate that a ammunition collector try to remove the ignition on the top ;-) A amount was especially for a museums (I thought) on one of the channel islands! I your interested give me a private mail for the adres.
Greetings,
Ruud Pols

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Post by jopaerya » 20 Jul 2006 18:55

Hi Michael

I know you only work with German primary source material ,
but are you sure that the 4,7 cm Pzgr. Patr. 40 (t) had the (t)
after the 40 , I thought that the German Army kept this round
in production and there was called 4,7 cm Pzgr. Patr. 40 .
Please see the bottom of the page .

Regards Jos
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ducatim901
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Post by ducatim901 » 20 Jul 2006 19:35

What i meant was, did the mobile 4.7cm Pak used the same ammo as the Festungspak (t)??

Greetings Jack

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tom!
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Post by tom! » 20 Jul 2006 20:36

Hi.

A spigot grenade was also developed:

4,7 cm Stielgranate 42 for 4,7 cm Pak (t)

developed by Rheinmetall and Solinger Fahrradfabrik. Thr development started in April 1942 as a Führer request. In mid 1942 a pre-series production of 500 grenades and 500 case cartouches was ordered and delivered. In August 1942 the grenade was still under development.

source: Waffen Revue issue 111, page 136. No pic, sorry

Yours

tom! :wink:

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M19 MADMAL
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Post by M19 MADMAL » 21 Jul 2006 15:48

Simon! dont even think about asking me to make you some fake rounds! :wink:
2500 5cm mortar bombs took me seven years!
Mal :wink:

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simondodkins
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Post by simondodkins » 21 Jul 2006 16:39

M19 MADMAL wrote:Simon! dont even think about asking me to make you some fake rounds! :wink:
2500 5cm mortar bombs took me seven years!
Mal :wink:
haha...I should only need a few.....maybe four or five thousand? :))...by next Wenesday?

M.Rausch
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Post by M.Rausch » 22 Jul 2006 10:38

jopaerya wrote: I know you only work with German primary source material ,
but are you sure that the 4,7 cm Pzgr. Patr. 40 (t) had the (t)
after the 40 , I thought that the German Army kept this round
in production and there was called 4,7 cm Pzgr. Patr. 40 .
Please see the bottom of the page .
Hi Jos :)

The service manuals H.Dv. 481/129 "Merkblatt für die 4,7 cm Pzgr. Patr. 40 (t) der 4,7 cm Pak (t)" from 07.04.1941 and H.Dv. 481/128 "Merkblatt für die Munition der 4,7 cm Pak (t)" from 30.06.1942 list both a (t) at the end of the designation. Since there was no chance to mix this round up with others at that time, they used perhaps a shortened designation in non-service manual documents.

Is there a way to get the document you have posted in my hands together with all other documents from that source? I am very interested in it, especially because of the listed penetration values and I am sure I can offer something interesting in exchange ;)

[Addition]On the ammunition production sheets of the Heereswaffenamt the shell has also a (t) at the end. The monthly production ended in 1942, the last addition to the storage was in September 1943 and on 1.12.1943 there were still 73900 rounds in storage.

jopaerya
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Post by jopaerya » 20 Jul 2007 19:22

Hello All

Here a nice cammo on a V.F. bunker for a 4.7 cm Pak K.36 (t) .

Photo = Ebay.de

Regards Jos
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nyznerov
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Post by nyznerov » 12 Dec 2007 12:01

ducatim901 wrote:What i meant was, did the mobile 4.7cm Pak used the same ammo as the Festungspak (t)??

Greetings Jack
I don´t thik so. We have two shells in our museum (http://k5.sweb.cz): one is for "fortress model" of 4.7 and one is for "field model". Second one is shorter than shell for fortress gun.

Greetings
Jiri

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