4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

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jopaerya
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by jopaerya » 17 Feb 2008 20:35

Hello

This is a nice detail picture of a V.F. 4.7 cm Pak K 36 (t) bunker

Photo = Ebay.usa

Regards Jos
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jopaerya
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by jopaerya » 04 Oct 2008 09:53

Hello

Who has any idea were this 631 was build , typical is the extra entrance on the left side ???

Photo = Ebay.de

Regards Jos
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AvB
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by AvB » 04 Oct 2008 13:46

Somewhere in Bretagne?
Must be near a town with a wide road.

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Manuferey
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by Manuferey » 05 Oct 2008 20:41

If I'm not mistaken, the designation 4,7 cm Pak 36(t) applies to the wheeled version. The bunker version or "Festungs Pak" includes a K for Kasematte: 4,7 cm Pak K 36(t). :?

Emmanuel

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Erik E
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by Erik E » 07 Oct 2008 01:18

The bunker version or "Festungs Pak" includes a K for Kasematte: 4,7 cm Pak K 36(t).
On this restored gun, of all things the letter "M" is included in the German typenumber, and the "K" is only used in what seems to be the Czech typenumber... :?
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jopaerya
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by jopaerya » 13 Oct 2008 19:49

Hello

Found in some early information from 1942 the same text 4.7 cm Fest. Pak M 36 (t)
but in all later information that I have found only the 4.7 cm PaK K 36 (t) .

Regards Jos
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Michael Turner
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by Michael Turner » 20 Jun 2009 01:06

Hello:

I am trying to find some information on the two guns that I've listed below. I've tried checking in some books that I have as well as on the internet. I also checked this web site and found this posting and I hope that those that posted to this will be able to help me out too.

4,7 cm Pak 36 (t) Early version (Horsedrawn)
http://www.attack-hobby-kits.cz/35503.htm


4,7 cm Pak 36 (t) Late version
http://www.attack-hobby-kits.cz/35504.htm

The questions that I have are:

(1) Does anyone know which Inf. or Panzer Div. Panzer Jgr. Abt's. received them?


(2) I assume that they were used during the invasion of Poland but were they also used during the Battle of France and during the North Africa campaign?

Thank you in advance.
Michael

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by jopaerya » 20 Jun 2009 12:36

Hello Michael

These guns were used in several division in the early stage's of the war , later these guns were more used in
division on the western front . ( date 14-03-1944 H.Gr.B. 245 guns ) Also there was a tank hunter version of
this gun placed on a Pz.Kw.I and Renault R 35 .

Regards Jos
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Michael Turner
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by Michael Turner » 23 Jun 2009 01:11

Thank you jopaerya for the information and picture. You wouldn't happen to know off hand which divisions received them or know where that picture was taken at?

Thanks’ again.

Michael

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kfbr392
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by kfbr392 » 19 Feb 2010 09:06

Does anyone have the production figures of the 4.7cm Pak 36(t)?

Some source stated:
1939: 200
1940: 168
1941: 51
1942: 68
The source is some website I once saved, but I cant remember which one it was.

Now,
- is this accurate?
- does this include the number of guns captured in March 1939, or not? How many were made pre March 1939?

Who has the detailled production figures?


Matt

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by bechelaren » 19 Feb 2010 22:15

Hello to everybody,
The small brass shield on the picture from Erik E carries following Czech inscription translated into English:
Joint-stock company former Skoda Works in Pilsen
4,7 cm cannon Model 36
So, for your guidance K = kanon in Czech = cannon in English
vz. = vzor in Czech = Model in English
Remark: If you will see letter H on a Skoda gun, this means "houfnice" in Czech and howitzer in English.

Now to various AT guns of Czechoslovak army before WWII:
They used vz.34 AT gun of 3,7 cm calibre and more powerfull vz. 37 AT gun of same calibre
Skoda gun vz.36 was 4,7 cm AT gun specially designed for fortifications. 268 pcs were produced until Munich crisis in September 1938. Most of them were used in German fortifications.
This gun was developed on basis of 47 mm naval gun produced by Skoda in small quantity for Iranian patrol boats. Further development of this vz. 36 fortress gun was - believe or not - again a naval gun for new Czechoslovak Danube gunboats of 100t displacement, which were about to be ordered in September 1938 but later cancelled.
Finally, the AT gun on jopaerya´s picture above is 4,7 cm cannon vz. 38. Its development went along with vz.36 fortification AT gun but the trials on field mouting were carried out only in 1938. The gun was adopted by Czechoslovak army as vz. 38 but the whole production went on since 1939 . Ca 300 pcs were bought by Yugoslavia while all subsequet production was delivered to Wehrmacht.
This gun is depicted by kits referred to by Michael Turner.

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The Edge
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by The Edge » 19 Feb 2010 23:47

Bechelaren, could you confirm the figure "300 for Yugoslavia"? :roll: (Number of delivered guns?)

My data is 420 ordered, but not whole number delivered. (1937-38)

Estimations of the number of guns actually delivered runs even below 50%, with part of not-delivered M.1936 Yugoslav guns (Skoda A5) taken by Germans for their own use. (Yugo version was that "Early" one - no rubber tires - so I guess they were prime candidates for installation at PzJg mounts.)

Thanks in advance,
Edge

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by dvzhuk » 20 Feb 2010 16:57

Hello Edge,

Following the book «Československý 4cm pevnostní kanon vz.36» (which deals also with Škoda A5 weapon), the initial agreement was of 250 guns, but later the number was increased up to 379 guns. None of them were delivered before 15 March 1939. Total nomber of guns delivered to Yugoslavia later in 1939 was 235. In January 1940 12 more guns were delivered. Then Germans canceled the agreement and the remaining 132 guns were put into service for Wehrmacht.


Regards, Denis

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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by bechelaren » 20 Feb 2010 20:43

Hi Edge and Denis,
first of all we have to clarify that there were two different guns:
4,7 cm fortification AT cannon vz. 36 ( factory designation A-6, Czechoslovak army designation "4 cm pevnostni kanon vz. 36") and 4,7 cm field AT cannon vz. 38. There was no 4,7 cm vz. 36 field AT cannon in service in Czechoslovak army.
My information source is (so far) the last complete book on Czechoslovak pre- WWII guns, "Ceskoslovenske delostrelectvo 1918- 1939" (Czechoslovak Artillery 1918-1939) by Jiri Janousek, issued in 2007. Janousek studied files in Skoda Works archive which contain complete business documentation and he was supported by (in my opinion) No. 1 Czech gun historian dr.Vladimír Karlicky who died 3 years ago and whose personal archive containes documents not to be found anywhere else (as per my personal experience)
So much about my data source and now to the guns themselves

4, 7 cm fortification AT Cannon vz. 36

Batch No.I comprising 268 weapons with accessories (inclusive gunports) was ordered by Czechoslovak MOD on 8/7/1936. 222 pcs were installed in fortifications, 39 pcs were stored in Skoda factory in Dubnica (Slovakia), one piece was sold to Romania in June 1938 and rest were used for training of gunnners
Batch No. II ordered on 30/3/1938 contained 273 weapons but none was delivered to Czechoslovak army. After Munich agreement (30/9/1938) Czechoslovak army evacuated guns from fortifications left in the border areas occupied by Germans. Even when several countries showed interest to buy them, noone was sold abroad. After 15/3/1939 ( day of final German occupation of rest of today´s Czech republic), German armed forces bought all cannons of Batch No. I ( less those left in Dubnica ) and re-confirmed order for Batch No.II to Skoda. Until production was stopped in 1940, Wehrmacht received 493 cannons, designated by them 4 cm PAK . K 36(t) ( K = Kasematte)

4,7 cm field AT cannon vz. 38 ( factory designation A-5)
Czechoslovak army received only 1 pc, Yugoslavia – according to Janousek - „ca 300“ pieces ( so the figures given by Denis are probably more correct, but they refer to this weapon, not to fortification cannon). Wehrmacht got newly- produced 102 pcs by 1940 and ordered another 100 pcs. Production went on up to 1942. German designation was 4,7 cm PAK 38(t). As THE EDGE corectly mentioned, this weapon was used in PzJg
The Yugoslav guns on wooden wheels were same model but designed for cavalry.
The photo sent by Jopaerya on 20 June 2009 depicts exactly same gun as that on Skoda factory photo of 4,7 cm vz.38 AT cannon

This is the information I have

dvzhuk
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Re: 4.7 cm PAK 36 (t) (ex-czech M-36)

Post by dvzhuk » 20 Feb 2010 21:33

Hello Bechelaren,

Thanks for your reply.
I have the mentioned book by Janoušek, so having same source I should agree with your opinion :D
4,7 cm field AT cannon vz. 38 ( factory designation A-5)
Czechoslovak army received only 1 pc, Yugoslavia – according to Janousek - „ca 300“ pieces ( so the figures given by Denis are probably more correct, but they refer to this weapon, not to fortification cannon). Wehrmacht got newly- produced 102 pcs by 1940 and ordered another 100 pcs. Production went on up to 1942. German designation was 4,7 cm PAK 38(t).
Only small addition to the figures. After the mentioned book by Kupka, Francev and Fuchs (also based on Škoda archive, but published in 2003), 4,7cm Pak (t) Kzg and 4,7cm Pak (t) Kzg (Škoda A5) were delivered to Wehrmacht in following quantities:
1940 — 234 (incl. 132 previously ordered by Yugoslavia)
1941 — 292
1942 — 96
Total = 622 (490 of them were ordered by Germans)

These numbers covers all field and SP versions.

Kupka et al. says about 132 SPG on PzKpfw IB chassis (built in 1940), and 174 on Renault R35, built in 1941.
After Janoušek, there were 202 SPG on PzKpfw IB (since April 1940), and 174 on Renault R35.

Regards, Denis

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