Neu

[jopaerya]

Hi All

I have a problem , who can help me with this , there
are bunkers released with the extra name "Neu"

112 Neu = new lay-out
114a Neu = new lay-out
117a Neu = 2 extra rooms
515 Neu = other armoured plate

Are there more bunkers with the phrase "Neu"
or has anyone more info on these bunkers ???

Regards Jos

[RuPo]

Hi Jos,
The ‘Neu’ types are interesting;
So the 117’s (according the normal types) in the HQ IJmuiden aren’t 117a’s but are 117b’s. A 117 with Nachkampfraum and without a Pz.Beobachtungsturm. The have the two rooms extra (regiments Gefechtsstand), I agree it are conform the last know documents 117’s neu. (don’t ask me at this moment for a copie … takes me ours, but I promised, I will search! ).
About the 502’s neu, it’s right that I could be two 501’s. But the specific details that let me thinks its is really a personal bunker for two groups like a 502 (or 622) is the space in the right entrance, in a normal 502 the periscope / storage room. In some German buildings planes about the former Festung IJmuiden they speak from a 622 on the place where was really build a 502 neu. Mine theory is that the Pioniere know of the type 622 but this type was not yet allowed to build. Wishful thinking; and there alternative was the 502 neu.
In the next bulletin of the Foundation http://www.WN2000.nl you can find an article from Jack about the 502 neu. I hope its ready end of this month (bulletins could be find in PDF format on the WN2000 site).
Grtz, Ruud

(Drawing of a 502 neu; http://home.tiscali.nl/bunkerarchief/di ... ologie.htm)

[jopaerya]

Hi Ruud

The German drawing of the 117a neu I have is with Nahkampfraum
and with Pz.Beobachtungsturm , I have also a drawing of the 117a
and 117b , the first with Nahkampfraum and the other without Nah-
kampfraum both with Pz.Beobachtungsturm .
To make it easyer there is also the Nahkampfraum with normal
entrance defence and also 117's Nahkampfraum with Panzerplatte .
Could there be a 117c and 117d without Pz.Beobachtungsturm ?

Regards Jos

[RuPo]

<< …The German drawing of the 117a neu I have is with Nahkampfraum and with Pz.Beobachtungsturm ..>> << …To make it easyer there is also the Nahkampfraum with normal
entrance defence and also 117's Nahkampfraum with Panzerplatte …>>

About the situation in the HQ IJmuiden, one of the 117’s is with a Pz.Platte the other with a normal shooting hole. Both are 117’s b., more correct of course 117 b neu. For both situations see the picture-link below.

<< … I have also a drawing of the 117a and 117b , the first with Nahkampfraum and the other without Nah-kampfraum both with Pz.Beobachtungsturm … >>

Tssjjaa … I only can say, that there was a standard for the suffix in the Kastenbau system. But it think this is know.
Fur sure:
a close defence and observation turret
b close defence and periscope
c only a observation turret
d only a periscope

But in the IJmuiden situation (and others) the bunkers without the turret keep the observation room. Observation was in the HQ IJmuiden not possible the bunker are build in a short of small wood. The HQ counts total near by hundred bunkers! Most of them from wood, stone ore thin concrete. Standig only the two 117’s a 502 and a 622. All the standige bunkers with reinforced walls, up to 3 metres.

<< ….Could there be a 117c and 117d without Pz.Beobachtungsturm ? ..>>

Have seen several of them but never noticed …. lets wait for Peters or Jacks reaction

Grtz,
Ruud


http://home.tiscali.nl/bunkerarchief/fe ... _frame.htm

[P. Heijkoop]

Hi,

Although the standard 117 is used for Regimental and Bataillion-headquarters, my theory is that the 117a Neu was designed especially for the function of regimental-Hq in the sector of the W.Bfh.i.d.Ndl.
For this purpose the bunker was enlarged to house the bigger staff.

This theory is based on field research that shows that the bunkers of the 117a Neu-type can only be found in regimental commandposts. Take for example; VB Den Helder, the Fest.Kdt. Ijmuiden and in Wassenaar (Jäg.Regt). The normal 117a was in the Dutch situation specifically used for batallion-Headquarters (Schouwen, Oostvoorne).

However, there is one exception: the 117 in Ijmuiden (northern bataillion) was also a 117a Neu.
This undermines the theory. However, one could argue that because this commandbunker
was the sole St-bunker within the Hq they chooce the larger version to accomodate the staff in the absence
of any other St-bunkers (this because most bataillion commandposts are actually quite large in the Netherlands and sometimes concisted of more then 6 St-bunkers...; see Schouwen, Voorne, De Beer and Ijmuiden south (both 609), 's Gravenzande, Den Haag Lindoduin etc)

Just a theory, but in my opinion plausible.

Furthermore, the 117a Neu was modernized and had a central heating installation which was housed in a Heizungsraum. The normal 117's were mostly equipped with normal bunkerstoves, although some (e.g. Ardres)
were also equiped with Zentralheizung.

Peter

[jopaerya]

Thanks Peter

Did you found the 117a neu in other places than in Holland and
what is your opinion on the 117s with and without cupolas ?

Regards Jos

[P. Heijkoop]

HI,

No bunkers found outside W.Bfh.Ndl.
I think the suffix-usage is quite clear

Haamstede and Schouwen, Ardres, Bonningues, Brest: 117a
Loon Plage, Oostende, de Haan etc: 117b
117c: not found yet.
location near Lorient: 117d (with periscope and withour Nahkampf; I heard via via that
one was found)

The bunker in Den Helder is then a 117a Neu
and I concurr with Ruud that the one in Ijmuiden (Fest.Kdt) is a 117b Neu,
just like the one in Wassenaar.

I think that a 117c without turret should be a 117b (let's say with periscope)

Peter

[jopaerya]

Hi All

The use of the suffix in the Westwalltypes is not
standard a-b-c-d , some bunkers used only the a-b
others like the 113d is a totally different bunker than
113a or 113b , please see also my drawing with the
117b without entrance defence .

For the 502neu I am still not 100% convinced , I think
that I have seen the same bunker in Le Clipon in France
( now gone ),

About the letter V after the 502 , I have seen this also
on the forerunner of the 502 , the 102 .

Regards Jos

[jopaerya]

Hello All

Who knows what the letters n. A.
means neuer Art or Ausführung ???

Regards Jos

[jopaerya]

Hello

Looking in the book "Der Westwall" I came across this page with for me a lot of new "Neu"
version who has information on the 105 neu , 110 neu , 504 neu and 506 neu ???

Regards Jos

[TH]

I've seen 506's with tobruk and presumably also a close defence embrasure, maybe that's the new version.

Edit: Actually all 506 at Hanstholm and Skagen were equipped with 78P9 plates (BFM).

[jopaerya]

Thanks Torsten

Here a other map with the 501 neu from Vineta ( Hoek van Holland ) .

Map = Jan Lugtmeijer

Regards Jos

[AvB]

We need exact measurements of a Westwall 501 (Sinz for example) and an Atlantikwall one..
Lots of the neu versions in the list are 'ohne Gruppe'.

[20P7]

Hello guys,

R 117d and R 119d were for example build in the Westwall and some are still visible.

I would also think that the new versions of the R 506 are the ones with Flank. Anlage. Along the Westwall are only the versions R 506a and R 506 b to be found.

Jos wrote that the R 113d for example is a totally different bunker than a and b versions. As most or even all of you know in case of Schartenturmbunkers the versions c and d are the two-level-versions of the normally one-level-structures.

Daniel

[AvB]

Then again, what's a 'neu' 'ohne Gruppe'. Must be something without crew room.