Unknown 105mm gun - HELP!

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 29 Sep 2006 12:28

My other issue - Rumanian Howitzer - I was wrong, it's too small to be 15cm variant.

Most probably 10.5 cm Krupp light howitzer M.1912, already known as part of Rumanian armament in 1916; some 12cm variant is less likely - but, until I actally measure its bore next time, this possibility stays.

See for yourself, it is between leFH-16 on left, and Skoda M.14 on right side.

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 07 Oct 2006 23:03

Hi Edge,

The caliber a bit puzzles me.
If an WWI era (Austro-Hungarian weapon), isn't the 16/19 designation "ruled" out?
If not a WWI piece how did it end to Belgrade?
Is 105mm M 16 (T) out of the question? (never seen a pic)

Regards, Juha

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 08 Oct 2006 20:15

Well, from the start I thought it was some WWI-gun. Because most of Turkish long guns and field howitzers were of German origin, I naturally assumed it is caliber 105mm.
However, it turned to be an Interwar model, Skoda vzor 16/19 mountain howitzer – model ordered by Turkey between 1925 and 1928! That makes no sense, because Turkey was neutral in WWII, so no piece of its armament can be “captured”, “left”, etc. (There are TWO such guns, to complicate matter additionally).
Only possible explanation I came to is based on well-known story about Turkish cash problems regarding purchase of Bofors pack guns in late 1920s – maybe this situation was not an unique one? Maybe Turks purchased vz. 14/19 field howitzers (delivered – Tosun put the photo of it), ordered vz. 16/19 as well, but than funds run out, so guns stayed at Skoda’s plant after the deal is cancelled? In this case Czech Army could eventually pick them for their own use; later, taken by Germans, it could easily end up on the Balkan.

Caliber issue - Turkey ordered Skoda 100mm howitzer first time in 1914 - before WWI broke out (and before Austrians did the same). However, 105mm variants exists - Czech Army also used them as well (for example, Greek vz.16/19s were 105mm). Turks also have vz. 14/19 in 100mm, so its hard to beleve they went for other caliber for vz. 16/19 model.
Newer saw M.16(T) also - but ih has shorter (WWI lenght) barrel, so not "my" gun.

Regards, Edge

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 08 Oct 2006 22:59

Thanks for the clarifications Edge

I'm a bit thin ice here, but can I still post few comments...OK ?
If the artillery piece is 100mm caliber, then the M.16/19 fits the pic nicely.

The Edge wrote:Caliber issue - Turkey ordered Skoda 100mm howitzer first time in 1914 - before WWI broke out (and before Austrians did the same). However, 105mm variants exists - Czech Army also used them as well (for example, Greek vz.16/19s were 105mm). Turks also have vz. 14/19 in 100mm, so its hard to beleve they went for other caliber for vz. 16/19 model.

My source (F. Kosar - Taschenbuch der Artillerie, Leichte Geschütze)
mentions Turks 1913 ordering and autumn 1914 receiving M.12 (M.14/T ?) 105mm howitzers.
There isn't info about M.14/19 howitzers ( or other 100mm pieces than the M.16/19) at Turkish service.

Here few links I have came across when looking info about the howitzer
http://www.slcmaquettes.com/nouveau_fichier84.html
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/ne ... illery.htm
http://www.fronta.cz/
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 507&page=4
http://foto.specialista.info/displayima ... m=91&pos=0
http://foto.specialista.info/displayima ... m=91&pos=1
http://www.worldwar2.ro/foto/?id=167&se ... article=36

Regards, Juha

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 09 Oct 2006 08:29

I made a mistake - original Turkish guns WERE 105mm (L/18).
50 pcs of these were seized by Austro-Hungarian authorities at the start of WWI. They were given designation M.14/T
About M.16T - must check more. Turks used lot of 105mm various German pieces - according to http://www.landships.freeservers.com/ad ... ldarty.htm Skoda M.14 (M.16 too?) was made for Germans in 105mm (considerable number).

Caliber X-file reopen.

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 09 Oct 2006 08:33

Your last link - http://www.worldwar2.ro/foto/?id=167&se ... article=36 - gun photo and tittle don't fits.
I think photo shows vz. 16/19, not Skoda D9 from 1939 - compare to D10 at Czech link http://foto.specialista.info/displayima ... m=91&pos=0

Regards, Edge

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 14 Oct 2006 16:29

I was in museum yesterday – and THESE GUNS ARE 105mm!

Both guns in collection showed the same result during measuring.

Both guns have the same “1938” marking on the barrel (red arrow).

However, ONE OF THEM HAVE also “10cm G.H.38(t)” marking on breech-block!

So, the mistery about (original) caliber of these guns remains.

(At least we know their origins – not delivered to Turkey, later to be captured in Czechoslovakia by Germans

)

jopaerya · Post by **jopaerya** » 14 Oct 2006 18:32

Hello Edge

Nice finding , you have found , for
me a new gun the 10 cm G.H. 38 (t)
It would be a great help if anyone could
translate the Arabic tect on the gun .

Regards Jos

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 16 Oct 2006 07:52

This translation could be tricky one - this is Turkish using Arabic letters - I don't belive it would help much, anyway.
BTW, Rumanian piece is 10,5cm Krupp M.1912 - verified.

SOMETHING ELSE - ALSO 105mm, BUT NOT SO "UNFAMILIAR"
(I first though it's 10,5cm LG-43; Howewer, I found "L41" mark on carriage)

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 16 Oct 2006 08:01

Inscription on table say it is captured 25.05.1944, during Operation Rösselsprung; plausible, but so many other similar legends are incorrect (museum was re-opened in 1961, during communist regime)

adolpheit · Post by **adolpheit** » 16 Oct 2006 17:25

It may be a Krupp 10.5cm Leichtgeschütz 40? The weehls and the shield are different. The carraige too. It looks like to the 10.5cm Leichtgeschütz 42.

Source: F.KOSAR, Infanteriegeschütze und Rückstossfreie Leichtgeschütze, Stuttgart, Motorbuch Verlag 1979, p. 101.

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 16 Oct 2006 21:03

These are the other options:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... 7,5-cmLG42

If you observe the last entry, it is clear why I was thinking LG-43 is the right one.

adolpheit · Post by **adolpheit** » 16 Oct 2006 21:07

I agree. This was my first opinion. The problem is the "L41" mark.

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 16 Oct 2006 21:11

adolpheit wrote:I agree. This was my first opinion. The problem is the "L41" mark.

Yes.

Could it be that this "Lafette 41" existed before?

nuyt · Post by **nuyt** » 05 Nov 2006 15:18

The Edge,
are we sure this gun was ordered by Turkey? They did not use arabic on their guns after 1928. Could these have been ex-Persian?
Nuyt