Unknown 105mm gun - HELP!

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 06 Nov 2006 09:17

nuyt wrote:The Edge,
are we sure this gun was ordered by Turkey? They did not use arabic on their guns after 1928. Could these have been ex-Persian?
Nuyt

I always go first for "simple solutions", so Turkish WWI gun was my premier theory. When I posted barrel logo photo, Tosun told me it's Turkish one. Than the gun turned to be Interwar model (that confused me a lot), but 105mm caliber fits to Turkish theory, although some also claims that related Turkish vz.14/19s were 10cm caliber.

But your suggestion is very good one - barrel is marked "1938". One of guns have it original sliding bolt replaced with one from Yugoslav M.28 model (combo gun, in 8cm and 10cm calibres). Use of M.28 bolt on M.16/19 model is dubious (although M.28 is just a slightly modernized model of later). Its "105/24" marking on barrel also lead to conclusion it is not "ordinary" Vz.16/19, but something derived from M.28 model (Czech vz. 30) with longer barrel (M.16/19 in 105mm version would be L/22).

So, if you have some photo of late 1930s Perssian logos, this theory might prove as correct one!

nuyt · Post by **nuyt** » 06 Nov 2006 09:27

The thing is that Cyrill wrote on the Overvalwagen forum that Persia ordered some 350 or so guns with Skoda in the 30s, but he wasnt sure of types....

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 06 Nov 2006 17:24

Hi,

Is the Skoda D8/D9 from 1939 (still) out of the question?
According to my Kozar pocket book "originally intented to Afganistan, ended to Romania" (or something)

Eingefürhrt in Rumänien
Änlich Gebirgshaubitze, 105mm M39 (D8), für Afganistan

Regards, Juha

nuyt · Post by **nuyt** » 06 Nov 2006 18:08

Gents, after reading Kosar Gebirgsartillerie closely I com to the conclusion that the Belgrad guns are the M16/19, while the picture of the Yugoslav Ecyclopedia gun is the M39!
Trukey is specifically mentioned as recipient of the M16/19, but he is not exact in the year.
Confused?
Should be!
Nuyt

PS I still go for the Persian option. The Afghan guns were indeed M39s, but like iI said, the Belgrad guns are M16/19....

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 06 Nov 2006 18:27

Hi nuyt,

nuyt wrote:PS I still go for the Persian option. The Afghan guns were indeed M39s, but like iI said, the Belgrad guns are M16/19....

That's really puzzling....
Are there any other photos of D8/D9 availlable than this? http://www.worldwar2.ro/foto/?id=167&se ... article=36
(The site owner is quite sure about the designation) At amateur eyes looks quite the same as "the Edge gun"
Did Persia use 105mm Skoda Mountain artillery pieces?

Regards, Juha

nuyt · Post by **nuyt** » 06 Nov 2006 19:09

According to Kosar Gebrigsartillerie, this is the M39.
No, I am only speculating about the Persian order...

jopaerya · Post by **jopaerya** » 06 Nov 2006 19:43

Hello All

Here a photo of a Persian Skoda gun .
http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=h ... D%26sa%3DN

Regards Jos

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 06 Nov 2006 19:43

Thanks nuyt,

At my eyes that gun(carriage) more resembles the M16 than the http://www.worldwar2.ro/foto/?id=167&se ... article=36 or the M16/19.

nuyt wrote:Confused?
Should be!

Me too

Regards, Juha

jopaerya · Post by **jopaerya** » 06 Nov 2006 20:48

Hello All

Just a thought but the sign on the gun looks like the
Afghan national sign ?? or is it wishful thinking ??

Regards Jos

nuyt · Post by **nuyt** » 06 Nov 2006 21:27

You could be right there Jos!
I guess the (t) was for Tali... (shhh)

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 06 Nov 2006 21:30

jopaerya wrote:Hello All

Just a thought but the sign on the gun looks like the
Afghan national sign ?? or is it wishful thinking ??

It sure looks the same.
Also the wreath around the sign at least is a bit similar.

Here the afhan flag used 1931- 1973

http://fotw.vexillum.com/flags/af1930.html

Regards, Juha

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 06 Nov 2006 21:35

Juha Tompuri wrote:Hi,

Is the Skoda D8/D9 from 1939 (still) out of the question?

Regards, Juha

jopaerya · Post by **jopaerya** » 06 Nov 2006 21:51

Hello All

So it could be a Skoda 105 mm Model 1939 ( D8/D9 )
ready for export to Afghanistan , but the occupation
of Tsjechoslovenia by the Germans stopped this and the
guns was used by the Germans and called Geb.H. 38 (t) .
If we are right , it's a great story and there are a lot of
books very wrong about this gun . Juha wins

Regards Jos

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 06 Nov 2006 22:27

Hi Jos,

jopaerya wrote:Hello All

So it could be a Skoda 105 mm Model 1939 ( D8/D9 )
ready for export to Afghanistan , but the occupation
of Tsjechoslovenia by the Germans stopped this and the
guns was used by the Germans and called Geb.H. 38 (t) .
If we are right , it's a great story and there are a lot of
books very wrong about this gun .

If it really is a "ex-Afghan" gun... Edge?
Somewhere in between were also the Romanians...between Germans and Yugoslavians?

jopaerya wrote:Juha wins

No...Forum wins (with your help

)...and Edge gets the correct designation

Regards, Juha

The Edge · Post by **The Edge** » 07 Nov 2006 01:48

So much fun without me?

Well, folks, you got something VERY INTERESTING!

About photo from Rumanian site - I saw it long ago. I was also sure this is the same gun as "my" museum piece. However, its M.1939 designation confused me - my assumption was this is Romanian designation for guns produced sometime before, but obtained (from German stock of Czech captured waepons) in 1939.

I'm quite happy with Afghanistan solution - everything fits, including why one gun have "10cm GH 38(t)" marking, but other have not - Germans changed their mind about using these guns, discovering that its real 105mm caliber was very much in colision with other Skoda howitzers they found (all 100mm) - so they sold them to Rumania (that's why it is not of beute-lists too!).

Thanks all for taking part in the quest!

Regards, Edge