Wrong alocation of Beute designations

Discussions on the fortifications & artillery used by the Axis forces.
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The Edge
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Wrong alocation of Beute designations

Postby The Edge » 18 Oct 2006 14:16

In many lists of beute artillery (for example: http://www.slcmaquettes.com/nouveau_fichier84.html ) you will find following items:

7.5cm GebK 283(j) ....... 7.5cm Gebirgskanone 283(j) ......... Canon de montagne yougoslave de 75mm M19 - Schneider
7.5cm GebK 285(j) ....... 7.5cm Gebirgskanone 285(j) ......... Canon de montagne yougoslave de 75mm M06 - Schneider
10.5cm leGebH 329(j) ... 10.5cm leichte Gebirgshaubitze 329(j) ... Obusier de montagne léger yougoslave de 105mm M19 - Schneider


What's wrong with this? :? Simple - Yugoslavia didn't use any of those guns! 8O

Beyond that, if you study this list, only Greek gun present is "10cm leFH 318(g)". :(

Where are all other Greek guns? :roll:

I think this is obvious - Greek guns were wrongly given "(j)" designations by Germans! 8O

Facts - it is known that Greeks used Schneider M19 series mountain guns (75mm & 105mm). 75mm Schneider M.06 is pre-WWI weapon, USED ONLY BY GREECE (later modified by Greek colonel Danglis into M.06/09 model, well-known in 76mm variant used/produced by Imperial Russia)

How this happened? :roll: Well, I'm wondering too. Only explanation I have is kinda "circumstantial evidence" - Germans attacked Yugoslavia and Greece simultaneously - war booty was probably gathered sometime in same places for both countries. Germans know that both Yugoslavia and Greece was French allies in WWI and that both use similar Schneider-made equipment. Did Yugoslavia used Mle 19 series or not - it is finesse of no crucial value.

I also suspect that under German beute numbers for captured Yugoslav 6.5cm mountain guns Mle 06, 10.5cm guns L13S and 15.5cm heavy howitzers C17S are also (almost identical) Greek examples.

(BTW - one of sources I have claims that Greek vz.14/19 Skoda light howitzers were 105mm - not 100mm, as usual - so maybe reason existed for special markings for these "leFH 318" guns > the only ones given "(g)" designation)

Regards, Edge / Antic

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Postby jopaerya » 19 Oct 2006 19:54

Hi The Edge

I have for the Greek guns the numbers

7,5 cm F.K. 267 (g) -- 6.0 to 9.0 k.m.
8,5 cm K.H. 287 (g) -- 15.1 k.m.
10.5 cm l.F.H. 318 (g) -- 9.8 k.m.
10.5 cm K. 340 (g) -- 15.5 k.m.

no mountain guns yet .

Regards Jos

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Postby The Edge » 19 Oct 2006 22:13

jopaerya wrote:Hi The Edge
I have for the Greek guns the numbers
7,5 cm F.K. 267 (g) -- 6.0 to 9.0 k.m.
8,5 cm K.H. 287 (g) -- 15.1 k.m.
10.5 cm l.F.H. 318 (g) -- 9.8 k.m.
10.5 cm K. 340 (g) -- 15.5 k.m.
no mountain guns yet .
Regards Jos

Great! :D

I was specially looking bute-number for 8,5cm Schneider gun (one of my favourites). :)

It will be marvellous to have photos (+ more info) of these FK-267 and K-340 (range data is not enough to identify them)

Btw, how about 7.5cm FK-250(j), 251(j) and 252(j)? Do you have them mentioned anywhere? :roll: (for Schneider M.1907/7A, Yugo Mle 1897... and maybe some obscure type, like ex-AU guns - export Skoda or Krupp)

Regards, Edge

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Postby jopaerya » 19 Oct 2006 22:56

Hi The Edge

I have no information on the 7.5cm FK-250(j), 251(j) and 252(j) ,
the only extra thing I could find was that the 10.5 cm K. 340 (j)
was the 105 mm Mod. 1927 .

Regards Jos

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Postby The Edge » 20 Oct 2006 08:55

So, we have BOTH 10,5cm K 340(g) and K340(j) ? 8O (Typing error, maybe? :roll: )

Yugoslavs had three types of 105mm long guns:
M.13 Schneider (*1)
M.15/26 Skoda (*2)
M.36 Skoda - K 339 (j).

(*1 - confusiongly, there are K 338 (i) & (j), both L13 Schneider guns; however, there is similar case, leFH 315 (i) & (j) for Skoda M.14 howitzers, so it is safe to presume that beute-number for Yugoslav Schneider 105mm guns was K 338 (j))
(*2 - there is FK 336 (j), probably beute number for Skoda M.15/26 gun - old 104mm model from WWI, re-lined to 105mm in late 1920s - but why "FK" designation? This gun had 15+km range, could anybody check does it fits for 336(j))

K 340(g) make sense - to put Greek gun after Yugoslav ones (336, 338, 339 series), because after Yugoslav Skoda light howitzers (315, 316, 317) we find Greek 318, also another Skoda product.
Problem is - I know only for Schneider Mle 13 in Greek armament :? . Range 15,5 km is too much for this gun. :roll: Maybe Greeks bought few of another Schneider long gun models (commercial one) in late 1920s (labeled M.1927), along other products - 75/105 GebK/H, 85mm FK, 155mm sFH? Needless to say, Yugoslavia didn't bought this stuff (except C17S howitzers, sFH 427(j) - interestingly, no Greek beute-number for the same item :) ), so if designation K 340(j) existed, this is only another example of Germans' confusion about Yugoslav/Greek Schneider guns.

Regards, Edge

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Postby jopaerya » 20 Oct 2006 09:23

Hi The Edge

The only gun in the German list with also 15,5 k.m. range is the Polish
10.5 cm K 29 (p) also called Schneider L 13 S .
For the Greek mountain guns I think that you have found the answer your-
self that there was one number for the Yugoslav and Greek guns only the
(j) and the (g) were different for this guns .

Regards Jos

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Postby The Edge » 20 Oct 2006 11:07

So, only thing for me now is to find these Schneider mountain guns in pre-1941 Yugoslav armament. :wink: :lol:

To quote one musician from Russian "We From Jazz" movie:
"What else would Germans invent to complicate life for us (Russians)?" :lol: (*)

Regards, Edge / Antic

_____________________________________________________________________________________
*) Of course, he though (1920s) that Jazz music, as all modern stuff at that time, came from Germany

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Erik E
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Postby Erik E » 20 Oct 2006 20:17

So, we have BOTH 10,5cm K 340(g) and K340(j) ? (Typing error, maybe? )


That should mean that it`s the same gun, but capured from different countries.
This is maybe rare on artillery, but quite common with handguns.
Examples:
Revolver 612(g) is the same "Nagant 95" as 612(p) & 612(r)
Thompson 28, called Maschinenpistole 760(j) is also found as Maschinenpistole 760(a), 760(e) & 760(r)
Even the Solothurn Anti-tank rifle shows up as Panzerabwehrbüsche 785(h) & 785(i)

Guess there were much more variations involved with artillery, as many factories made export models, special adaptions+++ And some countries even manucatured under licence.

Here`s what I belive is a complete overview on Yougoslavian guns dated November 1941.
Guess more were added later
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Postby jopaerya » 20 Oct 2006 20:38

Thanks Erik

For the complete official list of the Yugoslavian weapons ,
but we are missing some guns as mentions by The Edge.
Do you have the same list for the Greek guns ???

Regards Jos

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Erik E
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Postby Erik E » 20 Oct 2006 20:58

Do you have the same list for the Greek guns ???

Sad to say, I don`t!
This manual only mention French, Yugoslavian, Italian & Russian guns.

EE

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Postby jopaerya » 20 Oct 2006 22:01

Hi

Here a list from the Greek "Landesbefestigung" book
with the artillery the German troops found there .
Sorry no Beute-numbers .

Regards Jos
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Postby The Edge » 21 Oct 2006 20:52

jopaerya wrote: For the complete official list of the Yugoslavian weapons ,
but we are missing some guns as mentions by The Edge.
Regards Jos


GREAT! :D

You already found couple of them (WWI-era Schneiders and Krupp) - only one left is 7,5cm FK-252(j) that Cyril mentioned on "Allied Equipment" (Mle 1897?).

I need some time to analyse new data before next comment.

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Postby The Edge » 22 Oct 2006 12:44

After I made some comparations of this new data from Jos and those I have from before, I still believe that we are “back on square one” – German authors of Beute designations simply put pure Greek guns as Yugoslav ones (all of them French types – except 85mm gun, because it was so distinctive). This is not the case for Krupp & Skoda guns - they made quite clear distinctions.

It is obvious from the first Yugoslav Beute-list that Germans didn’t capture problematic Schneider mountain guns there – but we find them all in Greek list. (Of course, Yugoslav review is non-complete one; however, all mayor types are listed!)

Also, we have lot of examples that Germas had problem to make right identification of French guns: in Greek list they called 65mm gun “Schneider-Danglies”, whilst in Yugoslav one thay gave the same sFH 427(j) designation for two very different howitzers (C17S and C15S) – only distinction were /1 and /2 remarks. They also failed to identify Schneider M.07 and Mle 12 guns in Greek armament (probably all regarded as “Schneider 1897” - by default), but they were eager to mention all Krupp-made guns (captured from Turks 1912 and from Italians in 1940).

Regards, Edge / Antic
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Postby jopaerya » 22 Oct 2006 12:56

Hello All

The Balkan is allways a problem area :lol: :D :lol:
here some information I found on captured
guns form the Yugoslav Army and Navy .


Regards Jos
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The Edge
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Postby The Edge » 22 Oct 2006 20:50

WOW! 8O :D

I realy need extra time to swallow all the info you're bombing me with! :? :lol:


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