Unknow gun

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
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nuyt
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Re: Unknow gun

Post by nuyt » 15 Dec 2023 14:28

Hi Sturm, thanks, something in the back of my mind says I read that these howitzers were modified in France after WW2, sorry, cant find the source.

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Re: Unknow gun

Post by Sturm78 » 25 Dec 2023 14:38

Hi all,

An image showing side by side, the standard 10.5cm leFH18 howitzer (with different wheels and the muzzle brake of an FH18/40) and this strange and unknown howitzer. It seems that the Potuguese Army used both models of howitzers....

This image, although of poor quality, shows the obvious differences between the standard 10.5cm leFH18 howitzer and this strange howitzer used by the Portuguese.
nuyt wrote
Hi Sturm, thanks, something in the back of my mind says I read that these howitzers were modified in France after WW2, sorry, cant find the source.
I believe that, given the major differences and modifications, it does not look like a simple modification of the German 10.5cm leFH18.....
Besides, why modify the FH18 in this way if it was already a well-functioning and reliable weapon? :roll:

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Re: Unknow gun

Post by nuyt » 27 Dec 2023 17:49

Well, to keep them on strenght, they needed to be able to fire NATO/US ammo. So there is your first reason.
And here is a link to the French connection:

"Portugal bought a large batch of 105-mm howitzers 10,5 cm le.FH18M from France in the early 1950s.
During the 1960s and 1970s, the Portuguese Army used 105mm howitzers against rebels during the colonial wars in Angola, Guinea-Bissau and Mozambique. The last 10,5 cm le.FH18M in Portugal were written off in the early 1990s."
https://en.topwar.ru/228082-poslevoenna ... manii.html

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Re: Unknow gun

Post by ALVF » 28 Dec 2023 18:12

Hello,

The 10,5 cm l.F.H 18 was very esteemed in french artillery, mostly for his good accuracy, the variety of the shells and the regulatory of the powder.
A notable number was in service in french artillery during 1945 to 1960 years, these guns were seized in Tunisia in 1943 and in 1944-1945 in french atlantic pockets, in France and in Germany. The gun was judged as good as the U.S "105 HM2'.
Named in France "105 L.F.H modèle 18 et modèle 18/40", an official "Règlement" was edited in 1949.
The "Groupes d'artillerie" provided with these guns were based mostly in french "Afrique du Nord (Maroc, Algérie, Tunisie)".
Th 105 L.F.H were used mostly in Algeria in 1954-1962 years, especially on Moroccan and Tunisian borders after the independence of these two countries.
The french "Réglement-Titre III" cover (the "Titre II" is a very detailled study of the L.F.H 18):
105 L.F.H.jpg
Two photographs of french "L.F.H 18/40" in Algeria:
105 L.F.H Algérie.jpg
105 L.F.H Algérie-.jpg
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.
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Re: Unknow gun

Post by nuyt » 28 Dec 2023 19:41

excellent, merci!
any info regarding their modification?

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Re: Unknow gun

Post by nuyt » 29 Dec 2023 21:38

According to the Portuguese book on the colonial wars (Guerra Colonial):

"Between 1950 and 52 the original barrel of the Rheinmetall lFH18 was substituted by a French one which allowed the use of US M101A1 ammo". See: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/theover ... -t298.html

So a number of the PT 105 mm were modified and most were possibly lost in the colonies.

Other info from that old and derelict thread:

Portugal had received two types:

Obus 10,5cm/28 K. (Krupp) m/941 and
Obus 10,5cm/28 R. (Rheinmetall) m/941

The Krupp had iron wheels with holes and was towed by horse or cattle
The Rheinmetall had the same wheels as the Wehrmacht and was towed by a truck

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Re: Unknow gun

Post by Sturm78 » 04 Jan 2024 21:15

Hi nuyt

Acccording to my information, the standard German 10.5cm leFH18 howitzer was a Rheinmetall design.
This howitzer was deigned by Rheinmetall in late 1920s and entered service in Germany in 1935. The designation m941 could be the designation given by the Portuguese army to these howitzers, as they might have been received that year ..... but I have no information about it.

I have never heard of a 10.5cm howitzer designed by Krupp, at least that it will reach mass production.... :?
If it received the designation m1941 in the Portuguese Army, it is also possible that it was received that year, but it is very strange that Portugal bought two different howitzers from Germany on the same dates.... :?

What is clear is that they are two howitzers of different design, given the great differences between them, already exposed in the previous posts, which in my opinion, makes impossible the option that they were a modernisation or modification of the standard leFH18...

The images posted by ALVF show 10.5cm leFH18/40 howitzers modified by the French with wheels of French design, but I have not seen any FH18/40 in service with the Portuguese Army.

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Re: Unknow gun

Post by nuyt » 04 Jan 2024 22:36

Hi Sturm, ok, good points.
So I quoted a Portuguese poster on the other forum who stated that part of the Portuguese lFH18s were ordered from Rheinmetall and the other part from Krupp. Rheinmetall was of course the designer of the weapon as you say, but Krupp produced a large number of these on behalf of the German Heereswaffenamt from the summer of 1934 (first 80 pieces, lots to follow, source enclosed: Lothar Gall's Krupp history book).
gall1.jpg
Gall2.jpg
Explanation for the two versions given by the Portuguese poster is that one model was horse drawn and the other truck drawn. Due to slightly different production ways with Krupp and Rheinmetall the wheels for instance looked different.
About the French model developed from the lFh18/40, I agree these were not in Portuguese service.
Your "Porto" model is a unique beast and the only explanation I can give is that is was converted from some of the Krupp or Rheinmetall lFh18s in Portuguese service. I enclose a quote from a Portuguese publication that says lFh18s were converted in the 1950s to take NATO ammo.
Who did this I do not know. Portuguese army workshop? Bofors? Rheinmetall, a French company, who knows....
Guerra1.jpg
Guerra2.jpg
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Re: Unknow gun

Post by karlik » 25 Feb 2024 07:52

Hi!
I found a photo signed as "An early prototype of the anti-tank gun which became the 3.7 cm PAK 35/36."
Does anyone have more details about this prototype?
In an old Soviet book from the 1930s, this weapon is signed as "75/47 mm infantry gun of the Dutch Society of Trade and Industry. On the carriage is a 75 mm ?????? barrel."
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Re: Unknow gun

Post by karlik » 25 Feb 2024 08:17

Photo from soviet book.
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Re: Unknow gun

Post by nuyt » 25 Feb 2024 14:04

Hi Karlik,

many thanks for that picture!
In the late 1902s many armies were experimenting with infantry guns for dual purpose: anti tank and infantry. Companies like Bofors, HIH/HIH Siderius and Vickers offered several solution of weapons with either two barrels fitted on top of each other or two exchangeable barrels (one against infantry 75mm-ish and the other against armor, 37-47mm-ish). Few countries bought them and history forgot about them, but some did: China and Siam for instance. Most other countries opted for the infantry mortar, especially after Brandt started marketing their 81mm, in combination with a dedicated anti-tank gun.
The gun on your picture may be a Bofors model, with the 47 mm barrel showing. Not sure if the 75-ish is fitted below - you can barely make it out. The 81/37mm version had both barrels fitted at the same time.

See here for instance:
viewtopic.php?t=106311

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Re: Unknow gun

Post by karlik » 25 Feb 2024 14:47

Hi Nuyt!
Thank you!
Apparently both signatures are incorrect; this is indeed neither Germany nor the Netherlands, but Sweden.
Dutch 47 mm gun below.
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nuyt
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Re: Unknow gun

Post by nuyt » 25 Feb 2024 15:16

Correct!

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Re: Unknow gun

Post by Tanzania » 10 Mar 2024 10:44

Does anyone have an idea which Italian Gun type this picture show?

Photo Title: “Captured (Italian) Guns at Mortegliano.4. November 1917
Captured Italian Gun.png
Original Source: https://onb.digital/result/10FA317F --- https://digital.onb.ac.at/rep/osd/?10FA317F


I suspect the following pictures show the same (or very similar) gun type:

Captured (Italian) naval gun in Cervignano 12.11.1917 https://digital.onb.ac.at/rep/osd/?112448EF

4 Stück weittragende 15cm Geschütze, Görz, Parkplatz. (Ende März. 1918.) https://digital.onb.ac.at/rep/osd/?112A9F15

Weittragende itl.Geschütze.Monfalcone, Anfang Mai 1918. https://digital.onb.ac.at/rep/osd/?112AA2E5

Erbeutetes Geschütz bei Bicinicco 10.11.17. https://digital.onb.ac.at/rep/osd/?10FA3EE9

Erobertes Geschütz bei Strassoldo.4.11.17. https://onb.digital/result/10FA2C05

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

By the way; - Here you find 2.309 picture results about “Weapons and artillery“

ÖNB Digital /// Kriegssammlung - Fotos 1914 – 1918 /// Waffen und Geschütze

https://onb.digital/search/849526

Regards Holger
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Re: Unknow gun

Post by nuyt » 10 Mar 2024 18:00


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