5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

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P. Heijkoop
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5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by P. Heijkoop » 18 Dec 2006 18:15

Dear members,

I thought of starting a thread about this rare weapon which was used in the OW, Westwall and Atlantikwall.
I'm especially interested if anyone has ever seen the ammuniton lift and electromoter in place. My theory is that almost all M19s were of the hand driven type.

Peter

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AvB
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Post by AvB » 18 Dec 2006 19:05

Hmm, just today I saw a picture of a lift with Hand und Motorantrieb.
It was in the Ostwall.. Can't find it anymore, strange :)

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Post by P. Heijkoop » 18 Dec 2006 19:43

Arthur,

Do you mean this page on a for you familiar site ?
:D 8-)

http://bunkersite.lcbunkers.com/locatio ... anst3.html

Peter

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M19 MADMAL
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Post by M19 MADMAL » 19 Dec 2006 17:37

Hi all,
NICE THREAD!!!
The box which is at the back of the ammo room and the trench in the floor has nothing to do with the ammunition! 8O
The box would have (on the hole at the front top) a manual drive flywheel for opperating the drive shaft which went from the box,running through the trench in the floor, to the base of the mortar and then up through the mount to then link up to the weapon itself (via a section that moved in conjunction with the barrel elevation) to opperate the cam mechanism which raised and lowered the barrel.

The gauge which would be mounted on the "arm" sticking out of the right of the box would read the possible max rate of fire avalible to what speed the flywheel was being turned. :D

Secondly the box was also a dynamo to produce power for the motor on and under the barrel for opperating the cam to raise and lower the barrel and also for the lighting in the turret.The cables for this (nomally 1 large cable for the motor and 1 small cable for the lighting) also ran in the trench with the driveshaft.

Thus the box would be in "Motorhantrieb" mode to use the electrical dynamo to power the mortar.
If it broke down for some reason you could then use "Handantrieb" mode and opperate the weapon manually via the drive shaft.

If both the manual and motor elements broke down it was still possible to opperate the weapon itself with hand cranks. 8O :o

Hope this is of help,
Malcolm. :wink:
Last edited by M19 MADMAL on 19 Dec 2006 17:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by M19 MADMAL » 19 Dec 2006 17:51

Hi all,
The trench in the floor normaly has a metal edge to it (which look like rails) as it was covered in metal plates made to sit flush with the floor. Although some sites I have visited have wood planking to cover the trench instead.

Mounted on the wall, to the left of the box, at the back of the ammo room was a junction box which could have a large floor mounted battery (for the turret lights) wired into it and possibly a external power source could also be pluged in to it (like a generator).

Regards Malcolm :wink:

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Post by P. Heijkoop » 19 Dec 2006 19:13

Malcolm

Your interpretation of the fly-wheel is correct. It's the manual "Antrieb" of the weapon, called a "Schwungscheibe". It indeed moved the barrel (loading) and also operated the fire-mechanism (Bodenstück), so that when the gunner moved his peddle the weapon would fire.... (in cases where the M19 had a motor this would drive the barrel and fire-mechanism). The Gauge on the Schwungscheibe served not only as a speedometer but was also a the recieving-end of a kind of "telepgraph" on which the gunner could indicate the desired speed. He could indicate this by turning a wheel on a small device next to his periscope. When turning the knob either to "Feuerbereit", 40, 60, 80, or 120 shots/a minute a corresponding light on the gauge would lit up and the soldiers would swing the wheel until the inidcator matched the light of the desired speed..

However, I doubt the Schwungscheibe also worked as a generator for the motor on the weapon or lights in the turret (why place a motor when you "power" it manually ) On the attached pictures you can see that when turing to handle from "Handantrieb" to "Motorantrieb" the drive shaft in the Schwungscheibe disconnects... The motor (in theory, because I doubt if it was ever placed, like the ammo lift in the turret) and lights on the weapon were on an own seperate net, powered by a (external) source (generator/battery) and not t. The box to the left of the "Schwungscheibe" was indeed a junctionbox for the lights on the weapon and the ammoroom. The powersupply for the main telephone on the M19 (Festungsfernsprecher M) should be a battery-box under the turret floor. To the right of the Schwungscheibe was a normal fortress telephone which connected to the Linienfernsprecher on the weapon (at the gunner's position). A rendundant system for when the power (and so the lights on the Schwungscheibe) were cut off from power....

It's a fascinating weapon!

Peter
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Post by AvB » 21 Dec 2006 20:52

Right.. ;)

P. Heijkoop wrote:Arthur,

Do you mean this page on a for you familiar site ?
:D 8-)

http://bunkersite.lcbunkers.com/locatio ... anst3.html

Peter

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Post by M19 MADMAL » 22 Dec 2006 14:37

Hi peter.
I never knew how those lights worked on the dial before :o

I "guessed" that there was a dynamo in the box from the evidence I have gathered over the last few years while restoring the M19 bunker at La Corbiere, Jersey. Though I dont have much to work on due to the 1953 scrap drive!

All the electrics for the 3 lights in the turret (plus 2 were placed by the ammo recesses below the turret in Jersey's 633) and for the weapon go into or out of the box and are totaly independent from the mains electicity supply for the bunker lights and airpump motors! Both the ammo and mortar room have lights which are mains fed, but the cables dont go near to the box. So how was electrical power provided? :?

Also I have noted from wartime photos a kind of megaphone or horn which is mounted on 2 bolts just below the cealing directly above the junction box with a thin cable feeding it.
Have you any idea what it did as I am baffled :?
Regards Malcolm. :wink:

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Post by M19 MADMAL » 22 Dec 2006 14:47

Hi all,
Another question!
What was the range of a M19 as I have 3 seperate figures :?
The first is 20 to 620 metres.
The second is 50 to 650 metres.
The third is 50 to 750 metres.
Anyone know the right answer?

Thanks in advance, Malcolm :wink:

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Post by P. Heijkoop » 29 Dec 2006 12:44

Hi,

Well, as you said the power cables for the weapon go through the drive-shaft to the Schwungscheibe and I think
then to the cable divider to the left. I presume this cable divider was connected to a battery box, as many weapon emplacements in turrets and observationturrets have a battery powered illumination of the turret.
The megephone is I think just an Alarmwecker (or alarm bell) to alarm the crew.

I think the different ranges you mention for the weapon are dependent of the kind of mortars (ammo) they used.

Schussweite:
a) Small charge and barrelelevation 853- 240m
b) Small charge and barrelelevation 547- 5m
c) Large charge and barrelelevation 853- 600m
d) Large charge and barrelelevation 547- 80m

Peter
Last edited by P. Heijkoop on 30 Dec 2006 00:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by P. Heijkoop » 29 Dec 2006 12:45

So as you can see.... the M19 could clear the roof of it's own bunker...
luckily the turret is 30 or 45cm thick... 8-)

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Post by jopaerya » 29 Dec 2006 21:27

Hi Peter

Could it be 547 with 5 meter i.s.o. 847 ?

Regards Jos

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Post by P. Heijkoop » 30 Dec 2006 00:34

indeed. you're correct

Peter

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Post by P. Heijkoop » 14 Jan 2007 12:57

hi,

Just checked my sources and indeed in the lower part of the Schwungscheibe an electromotor could be placed.
This would switch on when turning the handle from Hand- to Motorantrieb. However, the currency for this motor was not generated by the turn-wheel.

There should have been two illumination systems on the weapon. One with three lightbulbs, connected via the Schleiffringkorper to a main junction box on the Unterlafette, from where the cables run to the cabledivider on the left of the Schwungscheibe.
The second system composed of three small lights which were identical to the systems used on optics. This system was most likely powered by a battery box on the lower part of the Oberlafette. When the first system broke down the gunner had to turn a handle in order to engage the second illuminationsystem.

Peter

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Post by jopaerya » 23 Apr 2007 16:42

Hello Peter

I don't know if this has something to do with the motor
but the M19 at IJmuiden were "völlautomatisch" .

Regards Jos
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