5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

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P. Heijkoop
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by P. Heijkoop » 27 Jun 2011 08:12

Hi,

They're original protective covers!


Peter

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stril
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by stril » 27 Jun 2011 09:41

They're original protective covers!
And with the coment from the experts im sure the cover is going the be removed in no time.
stril

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der bunkermann
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by der bunkermann » 27 Jun 2011 20:13

is there a welder in the house? weld it together and it will remain in place 8-)
gr, tim

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AvB
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by AvB » 29 Jun 2011 19:00

stril wrote:
They're original protective covers!
And with the coment from the experts im sure the cover is going the be removed in no time.
stril
And nobody knew the stoves were lying outside for years??
I still do have a little bit of faith in people, at least there's a role for the Fjell museum in here.

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stril
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by stril » 29 Jun 2011 19:47

[quote]And nobody knew the stoves were lying outside for years??
Stoves ? Im sure you know who, what and where. Im not talking about stoves, just plain silly M-19 parts.
Sadly the guys at Fjell are not as interested in such things as they should be.

And to get things straight, im impressed by the work done by M-19 Madmal and others.
regards
stril

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Harpoon
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by Harpoon » 31 Aug 2011 11:30

The last week I have done an extensively re-search of the net for new information about M19 and regelbau 633 as part of the job of upgrading my previous Sketchup model. A new two part 424P01 is finished and the weapon itself is next on the agenda. As I plan to make as much as possible as movable parts I not only have to make it look right but also understand how it was working. This is a tall order with the total lack of hi-res photos (except some from Hanstholm) and hardly any drawings. So I have some questions.

Raise and lower weapon.
As shown in B/W photo it seems to raise and lower at this point between the platforms. But this would mean that the whole operator platform also moved up and down and the top outside circular slotted piece not was bolted to the weapon but slide on pins. Is this a correct observation? Please explain.

Electric engine.
As looking on different pictures of remains and as stated in this thread it appears not to be normal to have an electric engine bolted to the weapon (maybe only to training weapons). A motor could be attached to the “Schwungscheibe” as written in this tread but this seems not to be normal either. So it boils down to be a mechanical weapon with electric power only used for lighting/instruments. Correct?
On some drawings it’s written generator in the room between ammunition and crew but none of the pictures I have seen show remains of any generator mountings, cables or exhaust tubes. Lack of generator could also support my theory that they all were mechanical.

New and old 633.
My old model is based on the so called old 633. The tell tale sign of a new one seems to be doors in-line between ammunition-air cleaning room – crew room and ammunition space to the left when you enter the turret. Was this design the most common? Last picture newest layout.

Air system.
Most of the regelbau bunkers had an open fresh air system and a hidden return air system. Of all the different bunkers I have seen photos of seems to have a hidden / or partly hidden fresh air system. This makes it harder to figure out, especially when the pipe ends are missing. Normally fresh airs came in at the higher pipes and leaves by the pipes close to the floor. Has anyone figured out the air system?

Ammunition lift
Can’t say I have spotted any traces of an ammunition lift either. Some bunkers show remains of a half floor on the bottom, could this have been made to make the manual handling ammo to the top level easier?

Malcom you and the crew has done a fabulous job restoring a 633 with hardly no parts. It’s too bad no complete restored 633 with M19 exists today. It could have been done in Norway but it does seem too late now.

It anyone have unpublished drawings or hi-res photos of this matter that could help with my model which will be publicly available please post or send me a PM

Cheers
/Anders

PS The drawing for the shelf’s from M19 MADMAL has already been put in good use as seen in model.

My published work can be found here:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... &scoring=m
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Last edited by Harpoon on 31 Aug 2011 11:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Harpoon
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by Harpoon » 31 Aug 2011 11:32

Two more
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Kalinor
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by Kalinor » 31 Aug 2011 13:11

those pics are superb, as for the ammo hoists, i dotn think any were ever fitted, i remeber once being informed that they didnt work very well and took up too much spacem it was also much easier for someone to simple pass the clips up through the hatch.
Jon from Lincolnshire

Wishes he lived in a country that has real bunkers

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M19 MADMAL
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by M19 MADMAL » 31 Aug 2011 16:31

Harpoon wrote:The last week I have done an extensively re-search of the net for new information about M19 and regelbau 633 as part of the job of upgrading my previous Sketchup model. A new two part 424P01 is finished and the weapon itself is next on the agenda. As I plan to make as much as possible as movable parts I not only have to make it look right but also understand how it was working. This is a tall order with the total lack of hi-res photos (except some from Hanstholm) and hardly any drawings. So I have some questions.

Raise and lower weapon.
As shown in B/W photo it seems to raise and lower at this point between the platforms. But this would mean that the whole operator platform also moved up and down and the top outside circular slotted piece not was bolted to the weapon but slide on pins. Is this a correct observation? Please explain.

Correct! The lower platform (80cm heigh) had a hinged door in each side which allowed a solder to opperate the handles for raising and lowering the weapon. The section that moved was the part between the lowest 2 rungs with the entire mounting above this point going up or down. On the B/W photo the central rod (the dark bit in the photo between the 2 cable pipes and behind the thin middle bar) was threaded like a screw and worked on the same idea as a car jack does. The thin middle bar has 2 small light colouered blocks on it (1 near the bottom and the other behind the 2nd rung) these marked the maximum points for raising and lowering the mortar. The lower platform seems to be an Atlantikwall modification

Electric engine.
As looking on different pictures of remains and as stated in this thread it appears not to be normal to have an electric engine bolted to the weapon (maybe only to training weapons). A motor could be attached to the “Schwungscheibe” as written in this tread but this seems not to be normal either. So it boils down to be a mechanical weapon with electric power only used for lighting/instruments. Correct? The examples I have seen in the Channel Islands were a mechanical weapon with the lighting being supplied by a large battery
On some drawings it’s written generator in the room between ammunition and crew but none of the pictures I have seen show remains of any generator mountings, cables or exhaust tubes. Lack of generator could also support my theory that they all were mechanical. I have seen this on drawings as well but have never seen anything (yet :milwink: ) to support that any 633's constructed had a generator installed in the ventilation room

New and old 633.
My old model is based on the so called old 633. The tell tale sign of a new one seems to be doors in-line between ammunition-air cleaning room – crew room and ammunition space to the left when you enter the turret. Was this design the most common? Last picture newest layout. I believe the old 633 type was only constructed in the Channel Islands with 1 on Jersey and 4 + 1 under construction on Guernsey both old and new have the ammunition recess on the left as you enter the turret room and none of the old type have an entrance defence in the crew room. The ventilation pumps are also mounted differently on the old type with the pumps being on different walls (see photo below)

Air system.
Most of the regelbau bunkers had an open fresh air system and a hidden return air system. Of all the different bunkers I have seen photos of seems to have a hidden / or partly hidden fresh air system. This makes it harder to figure out, especially when the pipe ends are missing. Normally fresh airs came in at the higher pipes and leaves by the pipes close to the floor. Has anyone figured out the air system? In the old type (guess the new type can't be much different!?) The pump on the back wall feeds into the ammo room where it ends in a valve above the Schwungscheibe box. There is normally a open ended pipe above the turret room door (missing at Stp. Corbiere) to allow air into the turret room with a pressure release valve on the wall between the mortar platforms which takes the air outside through a grill above and to the left of the entrance defence.

The 2nd pump goes in 2 directions with one pipe going across the room into the ventilation/ammo room wall to emerge as valves in 2 places. 1st just before the entrance defence room door and then a 2nd time in the entrance defence. There is then a pressure release valve to the left of the loophole which takes the air outside through a grill to the left of the entrance door.
The 2nd pipe from the pump goes into the crew room and ends as a valve shortly after coming through the wall there is also an openended pipe in the wall below this pipe so the crew & ventilation rooms would be pressurised as one 'unit' The air escapes the crew room by a pressure release valve located above the escape shaft which takes the air through an open ended pipe into the gas lock where another pressure release valve next the the entrance door takes the air through another open ended pipe into the entrace where it escapes from the wall where the loophole from the crew room should be. The pumps pull the air in from a vent outside which is located next to the Tobruk


Ammunition lift
Can’t say I have spotted any traces of an ammunition lift either. Some bunkers show remains of a half floor on the bottom, could this have been made to make the manual handling ammo to the top level easier? It looks like the hoist was dropped on the examples in the Atlantik wall (and the lower platform added in its place), there is an original B/W photo showing the clips being passed through the hole where it would be mounted. I would guess it was dropped as it would move without warning if the weapon was in action and could quite easily injure or crush a unwary soldier as it silently moved round 8O Plus original German plans of them show that they were electrically powered so if there is no electrical suppy for the mortar. . . .

Malcom you and the crew has done a fabulous job restoring a 633 with hardly no parts. Thank you! :milsmile: It’s too bad no complete restored 633 with M19 exists today. It could have been done in Norway but it does seem too late now.

It anyone have unpublished drawings or hi-res photos of this matter that could help with my model which will be publicly available please post or send me a PM It you want any photos of anything in particular send me a PM with you email and 'wish list' :milsmile:

Cheers
/Anders

PS The drawing for the shelf’s from M19 MADMAL has already been put in good use as seen in model. The ammo rack on the outer wall is to long! It should only be 5 units long like the other one oppersite. In the corner where your rack has an exta section there was a large woodern crate which held batteries for powering the lights on the mortar.

My published work can be found here:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... &scoring=m
Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
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"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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jbb20p7
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by jbb20p7 » 31 Aug 2011 16:46

Hi all,

Oh la la, Anders, very nice works , your drawings are beautiful 8O

Thanks for sharing

Bye :wink:
Jb

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Harpoon
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by Harpoon » 31 Aug 2011 17:35

Thanks’ for your extensive answer Malcom. I will go through your answer in detail and come back on your offer on photos. I will post pictures on the progress with the model in this tread.
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AvB
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by AvB » 31 Aug 2011 21:00

Wow impressive!! :D

wimve
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by wimve » 01 Sep 2011 10:43

Anders,

Well done ! I would say : as always.
Details are going up..
Thanks,

Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html

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Harpoon
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by Harpoon » 04 Sep 2011 18:25

I try to make a model of a general non specific M19 and new layout regelbau 633. If you spot anything wrong or missing and can support it with pictures or drawings please post.
First some pictures from nearly finished sections

Pic01
Wondering about the pipe left of the door to kampfraum. The special tables with sliding top are in place as well as about 1500 grenades. Total capacity with 10 shelfs and 3 racks had to be above 5000.
pic01.jpg
Pic02
Schwungscheibe in place as well as amm crates and festungfernsprecher. The special ZV1 100 Zuluftventil also in place.
pic02.jpg
Pic03
The HES made by Scolty are work of art. As you see the crew had good order in their closets on the inspection.
pic03.jpg
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Harpoon
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by Harpoon » 04 Sep 2011 18:28

On to the parts that needs some more work and help

Pic04
Special lights in place as well as indicator plate for closeing plate. The weapon itself and weapon frame should be more detailed but it’s hard when detailed drawings are missing
Pic04.jpg
Pic05
Elevation mechanism could be more detailed. Real cogs are an improvement to the precious model. Pz Rbl Z.F.3 sight in place but support is lacking.
Pic05.jpg
Pic06
Rollers are next to being put on 4 or 8? Hatches have been a little troublesome but I think the size and placement seems ok now. Weapon rotation mechanism puzzles me. Especially in relation to the raise and lowering of weapon and platform.
Pic06.jpg
Cheers
/Anders
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