5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

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M19 MADMAL
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by M19 MADMAL » 10 Jan 2012 21:12

AvB wrote:Does anyone know how much spare part boxes should be inside the bunker?
Hi Arthur,

I have a M19 'Kastern Nr5' 'Werkzeuge' crate to add to your 'Kastern Nr1' 'Bodenstück' so we know there would have been at least 5 crates. I would guess that one would have been for a spare barrel?

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
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AvB
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by AvB » 11 Jan 2012 09:20

Thanks Malcolm. It's just 'Kasten' btw :) I forgot which one you have. Anyone with an M19 manual who could shed a light on this?

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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by jopaerya » 08 Jan 2014 13:56

Hello All

It's a drawing of a conveyor belt for a M 19 ?? drawing is from the Polish book "Miedzyrzecki Rejon Umocniony"

Regards Jos
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by M19 MADMAL » 08 Jan 2014 21:13

jopaerya wrote:Hello All

It's a drawing of a conveyor belt for a M 19 ?? drawing is from the Polish book "Miedzyrzecki Rejon Umocniony"

Regards Jos
Cool plan! 8-)

It looks like the bombs were fed to the weapon without being on clips (you can see them standing up on the conveyor belt), the upper mortar mounting is different as well and looks like the bombs are fed from the conveyor, up the mounting & directly into the firing tube/barrel . Looks like its a plan of the fully automatic version of the M19 of which only 2 prototypes were made and only a firer was required in the turret.

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

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Eax-E
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by Eax-E » 08 Jan 2014 21:33

Good evening Jos and malcolm,

In my opinion it's not a M19 but a 10 cm.

Regards

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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by jopaerya » 08 Jan 2014 21:45

Thanks Malcolm and Arthur

For your replies

@ Malcolm that was my first thought too , but the M 19 looks so different .

@ Arthur I will check your option

Regards Jos

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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by jopaerya » 09 Jan 2014 11:24

Hello

I have checked the drawings of the le.H.T. 10.5 cm but the gun looks bigger
also the turret on the drawing looks a lot like the 424,1P01 but I could be wrong.
For the moment I think it's a full automatic 5 cm M 19 are there other drawings
or picture's known of this special M 19 ???

Regards Jos
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by Eax-E » 09 Jan 2014 15:17

Hello Jos,

Hum..actually it does not look neither to the M19 nor to the 10 cm HT.
The framework of the carriage, the fact to have a munitionswindel (supposing heavy shells) and ammunition racks not similar for thoose of the M19 makes me think it's something else than a classical M19.
However Malcom's option is very interresting, could he told us more about this full automatic M19 ?

Regards

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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by M19 MADMAL » 09 Jan 2014 16:58

Eax-E wrote:However Malcom's option is very interresting, could he told us more about this full automatic M19 ?
Hi Eax-E,

I can't add any more about the prototype, fully automatic M19 to what I have already posted. This infomation comes from an article by noted weapons expert Terry Gander & Lt. Col (Ret.) Herbert Jaeger called "Atlantikwall Defender - The 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19" which was published in Channel Islands Occupation Review No. 21(May 1993). It was this article that got me interested in the M19 mortar :milsmile:

The following from this same article may also be of interest;
Having few constraints on their design, the Rheinmetall-Borsig designers seem to have allowed their striving after the 'perfect weapon' to overcome their normal cost-effective and other similar disciplines. No less than ten different design studies were carried out before the final choice was made. One of these design studies involved a 'star-wheel' and conveyor belt ammunition feed system but this approach was abandoned. Even after all that work, the study that produced the appoved bomb delivery device turned out to be complicated and rather 'over-engineered'.

Jos is correct that his posted image shows a 424P01 turret, and I would guess it either shows the fully automatic M19 or prehaps the above mentioned abandoned design study M19 using a 'star-wheel & coveyor belt ammunition feed system'.

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by MNO KI » 12 Oct 2014 22:48

We are reassembling the upper deck of the M19 recovered from the 633 at Stp.Langenberg.

It is clear that the opening for the ammunition lift has been omitted. The brackets to secure the lift do remain in position. On the West Wall models there are also two hatches exactly opposite each other and symetrical.

The single hatch remains unaltered, but the second double hatch has been moved off centre and replaced with a single trap door with a short flap at the end.

Does anyone have any documents to explain why this alteration was made?

Regards
Paul
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by M19 MADMAL » 14 Oct 2014 22:06

Hi Paul,

The upper deck is coming along nicely :thumbsup:

I can't give you any documentation as to why the upper platform was altered for the 'Atlantikwall' M19 but every M19 I have seen photos of showing examples installed in the Atlantikwall (about a dozen examples from Norway to France) has this same platform setup. The smaller hole/door is the correct size for mounting the ammunition hoist, but I have never seen an example with it fitted due to the Atlanticwall M19 not being powered electrically, but by the manual flywheel in the ammo room. The Westwall's M19 ammunition hoist was powered with electricity like the weapon, so it seems no electricity no hoist.

No ammunition hoist also meant there is a problem getting ammo up to the weapon so the lower platform is an Atlantikwall refinement to allow the passing up of ammo through the small hatch where the hoist should be. Not an ideal situation, especially when the weapon was traversing! But there are war time photos showing this being done 8O (see below). Also, due to the instalment of the lower platform, the central weapon column (slip ring) was given 'wrap-around' rungs rather than the 'drop-down' ladders found on the Westwall example.

Be cautious when using the Westwall M19 plans as there are also several distinct changes to the weapon component/upper carriage as well, which differ from the Westwall examples. These changes are mostly to do with the fitting of the drive shaft used to 'power' the Atlantikwall examples.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by jbb20p7 » 15 Oct 2014 13:13

Hello

Nice work .... see my new find, to put 5cm mortar shell


Image

Image

Image



Bye ;)
Jb

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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by MNO KI » 15 Oct 2014 23:00

M19 MADMAL wrote:Hi Paul,

The upper deck is coming along nicely :thumbsup:

I can't give you any documentation as to why the upper platform was altered for the 'Atlantikwall' M19 but every M19 I have seen photos of showing examples installed in the Atlantikwall (about a dozen examples from Norway to France) has this same platform setup. The smaller hole/door is the correct size for mounting the ammunition hoist, but I have never seen an example with it fitted due to the Atlanticwall M19 not being powered electrically, but by the manual flywheel in the ammo room. The Westwall's M19 ammunition hoist was powered with electricity like the weapon, so it seems no electricity no hoist.

No ammunition hoist also meant there is a problem getting ammo up to the weapon so the lower platform is an Atlantikwall refinement to allow the passing up of ammo through the small hatch where the hoist should be. Not an ideal situation, especially when the weapon was traversing! But there are war time photos showing this being done 8O (see below). Also, due to the instalment of the lower platform, the central weapon column (slip ring) was given 'wrap-around' rungs rather than the 'drop-down' ladders found on the Westwall example.

Be cautious when using the Westwall M19 plans as there are also several distinct changes to the weapon component/upper carriage as well, which differ from the Westwall examples. These changes are mostly to do with the fitting of the drive shaft used to 'power' the Atlantikwall examples.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
Thanks Malcolm

I'm still not convinced. The ammunition lift in this position would be in the way of the loaders seat, but agree that the lift was omitted on Atlantic Wall examples. We've found no trace in any of the 633's we've excavated.

I'm also not convinced they were manually operated only. It's my understanding the motor was relocated to the steel box mounting the flywheel. The motor would then drive the weapon through the same shaft, and the operator could select hand or motor drive via the large lever on the side which moved the gear selector in the top of the box.

Regards
Paul

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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by M19 MADMAL » 16 Oct 2014 16:58

MNO KI wrote:
Thanks Malcolm

I'm still not convinced. The ammunition lift in this position would be in the way of the loaders seat, but agree that the lift was omitted on Atlantic Wall examples. We've found no trace in any of the 633's we've excavated.

I'm also not convinced they were manually operated only. It's my understanding the motor was relocated to the steel box mounting the flywheel. The motor would then drive the weapon through the same shaft, and the operator could select hand or motor drive via the large lever on the side which moved the gear selector in the top of the box.

Regards
Paul
Hi Paul,

AFAIK the loaders seat was omitted on the Atlantikwall examples as I have never seen one still in place on any of the surviving examples even though most of them still have the firers seat present. The same applies to the 2 examples I have photos of which still survive in the Ostwall. Both still have the firers seat, but no sign of the loaders seat. I also have 2 war time photos that show no loaders seat is present.

The set-up of the fly wheel in Westwall B-Werk bunkers along with the M19 itself as shown in the 'manual' is different to the M19 found in 633's. I think the B-Werks do have the manual drive fly wheel, although I have only seen drawings showing it. But the B-werk's also have a fully integrated electrical supply for powering the M19's motor and the motor on the ammunition hoist. The mounting for this electrical supply equipment can be seen on the photos below of a B-Werk's M19 ammunition/equipment room. You would need a 3-faze electrical supply (as for the air pump motors) for the operation the M19's electrical motors and/or the motor placed in the flywheel mounting, along with all the necessary fuse boards and distribution boxes etc associated with it. I have not (yet) seen any electrical cables linking the fly wheel box to the bunker's own electrical circuit in a 633. If a generator was supplied in the ammo room to power the motor(s) then there is no evidence of a place to mount the generator or provision to remove the exhaust fumes produced. You are quite correct about the large lever on the side of the flywheel box for 'manual' & 'motor' power, and indeed there is provision for a motor to be installed in the base of the flywheel box. But I have not yet seen any evidence of the motor being fitted or the necessary power supply running to it.

There are 2 electrical cables that run in the ammunition room's floor trench from the manual drive flywheel, through the M19's body (slip ring) via a couple of sockets, to the weapon. The thinner cable is for the 24 volt system which is supplied by a battery located in the corner of the ammunition room (to the left of the fly wheel) which powers 2 lights for illuminating the lower part of the turret room, the 3 lights on the weapon for illuminating the upper compartment and also the optic aiming reticule, the pointer on the Azimuth scale and the elevation scale. The same 24 volt system is used in 6-Sch. bunkers for the turret's internal 'ring-main' for the optics illumination lamps etc.

The 2nd, thicker cable (found running along the trench) is for the transmission of dater between the control box (located on the weapon) for showing the gunner's desired rate of fire (he's options were 40, 60, 80 or 120) with the gauge on the arm of the manual drive flywheel. The 'requested rate of fire would be shown by the bulbs being iluminated alongside the 40, 60, 80 or 120 on the flywheels gauge.

Hope this helps. :milsmile:

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
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"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

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Re: 5cm Maschinengranatwerfer M19

Post by M19 MADMAL » 16 Oct 2014 17:00

jbb20p7 wrote:Hello

Nice work .... see my new find, to put 5cm mortar shell
Very nice box Jb 8-)
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

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