Batterie de Maisy Normandie

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
dando
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Post by dando » 07 Feb 2007 18:33

Further to the person who invented the picture of Rangers at Maisy I quote from the response from a 5th Ranger veteran to the question this afternoon.

Is this the 5th Rangers at Maisy?
They are not Rangers! We wore jump boots and they are wearing leggings. They look like they setting up for a firing mission of some type. NOT RANGERS!

......So there we have it... straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

Please dont invent things.... it makes you look silly in a serious forum.

Gary

PS Mats... I am sorting out the website for Maisy at the moment - however you can find information on http://www.armourer.co.uk/maisybattery.htm for now.

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moonraker
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Post by moonraker » 07 Feb 2007 22:37

dando wrote:Dear Sir

You admit you live in Holland and can see all you need to from there - I am impressed ?!... firstly the sites are called Les Perruques and La Martiniere - not the ones you have on your map which are spelt wrong.
?"
hello dando,
That you look as name in battery is false. The historians are who speak books on of false info, and after the others resumed.as you! but sorry!
for you info please:
your battery:wn 83
name code german:
maisy 4 x 15,5 cm s.f.h.414(f)
battery:wn 84 wiht the bunker 3 x R612.
name code german:
brasilia 4 x 10 cm le FH 14/19 (t)
all two surround for Surround field of mine number mf 95
There is also a name of German code for the sector, which makes left batterys. And sector makes left the KVU GR percèe
To know you the name battery sector????....for your book!.....
Finally to conclude, if your battery was so big as this why is only a wn and a STP.
For the German map of May, 1944 is only a wn. that the batterry of the point of the hoc is STP.
Understand you that I to say to you?
thank for the answer.
greeting etienne

johnf
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Post by johnf » 08 Feb 2007 11:11

Gentlemen I believe we are all on the same side, and that you should stop trading insults. Fortunately for us Gary is preserving a typical coastal fortification.
He is approaching the history from the people who liberated it and not as most of us the people who built it. I have visited the site many times in the past and once with Gary last year. Both sites have been on my web site http://www.atlantikwall.org.uk since I built the site six years ago.
Etienne who I also know and respect, as possibly the man who knows the most about German bunkers in Normandy has the disadvantage of not speaking English and is therefore I think using a translator to convey his thoughts and idea's, and as we know a lot gets lost.
Alain who I have not me, but feel I know, was the person through his books got me and many others interested in the Atlantik Wall in Normandy. Alain is also French and I think is using a translator.
From the German plans we know what bunkers we built or where going to be built, but often not some of the lighter buildings. Etienne and I believe Lenco have spoken in the past of a hospital, and Gary has found it, well done.
We keep hearing about HMS Hawkins and her role on D-day. She had four targets the gun emplacements at St Martin de Varreville, both sets of guns at Maisey and also the radar at Maisey.
Early on the morning of D-day she claimed the batterie at Maisey opened fire on her. A neat trick as the guns were moved north after a bombing raid in May.
She then claims to have silenced both Maisey batteries.
When I visited the site with Gary there is not a lot of damage to any of the concrete structures. If you read Captain Ohmsen's report on the shelling of his batterie at Crisbecq by the fleet he tells of both of the guns under concrete being out of action by 09:30. All the photographs of the casemates after the liberation show no real signs of damage.
So what put them out of action? It can't be because their crews were killed, at that point they had more men than they needed. The six anti aircraft guns had been lost in a bombing raid, surly those AA crews could have been pressed into service. What I am trying to illustrate is that lack of damage on the concrete does mean the guns were serviceable.
Why don't we get together one weekend when the weather is better and visit the site with Gary.
Best Wishes John

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moonraker
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Post by moonraker » 08 Feb 2007 11:40

hi john,
great speak.
ok for me! I to go maisy my bunker friend of belgique and posible other french! that will be able to make it possible to see the work.
it is true that I use a translator, but I make effort of speaking the language about speakpeare.
regard.
etienne.
ps : SB come has pâques.

Mats
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Post by Mats » 08 Feb 2007 11:51

johnf, thank you for your very wise words!

Regards / Mats

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moonraker
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Post by moonraker » 08 Feb 2007 11:56

Mats wrote:johnf, thank you for your very wise words!

Regards / Mats
is the fairplay englich I think? no
etienne :wink:

dando
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Post by dando » 08 Feb 2007 11:58

Thanks for that. Yes, I am well aware of the WN numbers.

The reason the site is called Maisy Battery is because a) its in Maisy. b) thats what the RAF, the USAF, the F.French AF, the RCAF and the US Army and Navy called it on D-day.

This is a direct quote from page one of the official RAF website in England today.
"4/5 June Deception Sorties – Attacks on Coastal Batteries. On the night 4/5 June, 259 aircraft from Bomber Command attacked 4 gun positions with 125 Lancasters, 118 Halifaxes and 16 Mosquitoes from 1, 4, 5, 6 and 8 Groups. Three of the targets were deception targets in the Pas de Calais. The fourth was the Maisy Battery, which lay between Omaha and Utah beaches. The target was completely covered by cloud and could thus only be marked by Oboe sky markers."

As I speak English and not German then I called it Maisy Battery so that anyone looking through historical paperwork etc would understand what and where it was. How many people will go looking for WN83 and 84 - not that many other than bunker experts.

I dont think thats particularly a problem - perhaps for you but not for me. Maisy Battery is fine by me.

As for why you have STP, WN etc. I have no idea. I can only repeat whats been said before. If you visit the site you will see it is significantly larger than many of the other batteries in that area. Simple fact. You will also note on your mine field map that the mine fields around the site(s) is far bigger than most others in the same area. Look at PdH on the same minefield map for example its far bigger at Maisy...

Why did Pdh have 3 x 20mm AA guns working on D-day and a wooden false AA battery in the field next door - when Maisy had 12 x 88's, 2 x 37mm, 4 x 20mm, plus half a Flak Battalion (approx 1,000 men) on D-day if it wasnt of any importance? (And before anyone disputes that claim get Werner Von Kistowskis interview notes from Cornelius Ryans paperwork and its in black and white). Also in the same notes is Jean Marrions radio call to England warning of the units arrival and set up at Maisy on the 5th of June.

Its not me inventing thats just me stating facts recorded at the time. As with the person who uploaded the picture which was not the Rangers at Maisy proved... once someone says something which is not correct everyone copies it or believes it.

These forums are great but they are also a source of huge amount of nonesense written by armchair historians. If you get yourself a passport and come down from Holland to visit Maisy in person then perhaps you will see it differently.

Hi John... thanks for what you say. I agree entirely, my interest is the day and the guys and many other people are interested in what buildings are there etc. Thats very true but I can only repeat (and you know because you have had the full guided tour) - the site is bigger than people realise. I still point out to these guys to tell me what the largest building on the site is because as you know John it is still underground. Nobody has told me what it is yet and I am still waiting. However, I am sure when I do dig it up then everyone will have always known what it is (?).... Please tell me what it is ?

The personal insults about Tarot Cards etc. are just childish.

I have personally never seen anyone mention the hospital before it was uncovered and infact very few people mentioned Maisy in any capacity in printed form before I started the work. Now everyone seems to accept that the battery was alive on D-day and beyond and that has now also been well proven by veterans. Ranger Major Sullivan who is well written about on the web was awarded the DSC for his actions at Omaha Beach, Pointe du Hoc and for leading the attack on the guns at Maisy where he was wounded... I have a copy of his certificate for the DSC.

Finally John do you remember meeting me with a 5th Ranger veteran in the cafe at Utah Beach last year... he recently wrote this "It has been stated by "unknown British authorities" that Maisy Battery was destroyed on June 6th by a British Cruiser... Absolutely False ! It was fully operational when we captured it on June 9th."

All this information is out there and I am interested in collecting as much of it as possible. I am not however interested in arguing why a STP or WN - I dont know.

Gary

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AvB
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Post by AvB » 08 Feb 2007 12:37

I'm sorry for misspelling the town names. I'll change that on our website.
But you don't get my point, or it seems you don't want to get it.
After all the discussions It's now clear that we're discussing totally different things.
There's nothing to proof after all. Apparently you don't know how this defence system
is set up. I quote:
I am not however interested in arguing why a STP or WN - I dont know.
You're not even interested in how it works, but to complete the historical picture
it's also nice to see the German side.
The sites were on websites long before you started digging.
Now everyone seems to accept that the battery was alive on D-day and beyond
Everyone?
If you visit the site you will see it is significantly larger than many of the other batteries in that area. Simple fact
Simple fact? When there're a couple of other people saying the opposite, which have been studying the Atlantikwall for years I believe them over you, yes, without even had a glimps at the battery. But this isn't enough for you, I know.
nonesense written by armchair historians
You absolutely have no idea what you're talking about. And this is quite childish too.
The personal insults about Tarot Cards etc. are just childish.
Indeed. I know you'll react with all kind of proof and repeat your previous statements but again we're discussing different things from a different point of view.

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moonraker
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Post by moonraker » 08 Feb 2007 12:45

dando wrote: All this information is out there and I am interested in collecting as much of it as possible. I am not however interested in arguing why a STP or WN - I dont know.

Gary

hello,
thus for you history of the battery begins afther on June 6 has 5 H of the morning?
for your information, I am of Normandy, and works on the festung Cherbourg and the calvados since many years.
and I know maisy since 1971.whereas this place was a garbage dump.
for the engagements after June 6, I does not contradict you because I do not know anything has the history of the DDAY.
for me which is most interesting is the life of the soldier german and the construction of the wall of the altanticwall as well as the battery which composes.
for you does history of the battery begin on June 6 but which was the German forces on June 6 has this place for you ?
afther on June 6 German one certainly joined the battery before going up towards cherbourg.dout the great number of mais troop is only assumption.

etienne.

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bunker14
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Post by bunker14 » 08 Feb 2007 13:38

bunker14 wrote:
dando wrote:.. . But they were under the command of the same officers and are linked within the wire and mines by trenches and tunnels... if thats not connected then I will eat my hat.
ok so can you prove it?? have you pictures or other document about trenchs end tunnels between the two battery????

ben
you don't answer my question!!!!




dando wrote: As for why you have STP, WN etc. I have no idea. I can only repeat whats been said before. If you visit the site you will see it is significantly larger than many of the other batteries in that area. Simple fact. You will also note on your mine field map that the mine fields around the site(s) is far bigger than most others in the same area. Look at PdH on the same minefield map for example its far bigger at Maisy...
Gary
i have visited the two battery befor work's and after
and it's a Wn and not a STP because i'ts not big position
juste for information: (inside wire)
Pointe du hoc is 20 Ha
Longues: 25 Ha
Maisy I: 10 Ha
Maisy II :6 Ha
""1 Ha : 10 000m²""
dando wrote: Why did Pdh have 3 x 20mm AA guns working on D-day and a wooden false AA battery in the field next door - when Maisy had 12 x 88's, 2 x 37mm, 4 x 20mm, plus half a Flak Battalion (approx 1,000 men) on D-day if it wasnt of any importance? (And before anyone disputes that claim get Werner Von Kistowskis interview notes from Cornelius Ryans paperwork and its in black and white). Also in the same notes is Jean Marrions radio call to England warning of the units arrival and set up at Maisy on the 5th of June.


Gary
wrong

PDH have 3x 37 flak 36 and a 88mm flak with 2x L409!!!!!! do you hav e L409 at Maisy ?? no!!!!

you talking about 12 x 88 mm for Maisy batterys!!!!!!!! were have you found your information!!!!!
dando wrote:Please dont invent things.... it makes you look silly in a serious forum.
I think you can make the same thing.!!!!!!!!!

Ben
Last edited by bunker14 on 08 Feb 2007 17:28, edited 1 time in total.

ducatim901
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Post by ducatim901 » 08 Feb 2007 16:41

Sorry Dando, I have to agree with Ben, Even the big channel batteries in the Pas de Calais did not have this many Flak to protect them from allied bombers, if you try to use the German documents and not the eyewitnesses words, in my youth i went to a lot of bunkers and it is always different when i visit them now......I see much more things now i know more about it.
I once had an accident and i directly wrote my happenings on paper, when i read it now it is different than in my memory........
The days in the war for the soldiers were just as catching and unforgetable but it is sixty years ago, do you really think they remember everything??
Most of the men that lived in the war i spoke with have the same stories about trenches from Hook of Holland to The Hague, they say you could walk thru the covered trenches without seeing any daylight, from Hook of holland to The Hague it is about 7 to 10 Km's, this was impossible because the whole strategy and tactic of the A-Wall was pointed to the fact that every strongpoint could be defended 360 degrees and that there were no trenches to the neighbour strongpoints because allies could roundup the whole line.
You must not always trust a mans word!!!!!!!
You must do so only when they are drunk............
Most of the batteries in Holland were protected by light or middle heavy Flak (2cm, 3.7cm, 4cm and Fla.MG's).
Oh and lets not call eachother liars, lets not imply that you are right.
Lets keep the conversation going............;-))
Greetings jack "politicly correct" Koorneef.

picobello
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Post by picobello » 10 Feb 2007 03:46

On the subject of the jumpboots of the 5th Rangers (the picture on the first page of this subject),... this is very interesting. I noticed that in the movie Saving Private Ryan the Rangers were wearing leggings, instead of the jumpboots. I noticed it now on the picture I used on one of my pages on SPR,... Thanks for this info (there goes the 'authenticity' (again) of SPR)

http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/film/spr/pag4.htm

on Maisy:

http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/normandie8/maisyeng.htm

Greetings and thanks!
Pieter
http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/normandie1/home.htm

Clayroger
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Post by Clayroger » 10 Feb 2007 14:07

Just my two cents over this long controversy.

It's a fact that these batteries were correctly identified by the Allies, and got a correct treatment (aerial and naval) before and after DDay.

Globally, the importance of Maisy appears to be over estimated both as a threat to the landings, but also as a defensive position.
The affirmation about the dozen 88 is ridiculous. As it can't be backed by any solid archive.
And moreover, if you consider the fact that the position resisted only five hours to a light infantry attack (Rangers), it can't be seriously considered as a big position in regard of the announced garrison and armament.

So the conclusion before reading any written and official archive which would be very interresting, Maisy must ne considered as a couple of WN of some importance, but not a major arty STP.

Regards

dando
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Post by dando » 10 Feb 2007 20:41

OK I'll be brief cos playing bat and ball is getting a little tedious.

If I remember correctly Maisy was target number 4 on the allied target list for D-day - get the targetting information and you can see that for yourself. So someone thought it worth attacking.

If anyone knows what 2, 3 are I would be interested. I was told they were possibly from around Le Havre and then cancelled when that operation was shelved.

The Rangers boot info came from a 5th Ranger veteran the other day.

The WN - STP saga... Maisy had guns on D-day Pointe du hoc did not. Quite how that works with WN - STP I dont know. You get hung up about it cos I wont.

I have the officers names and can easily prove it. One Captain and Leutenant lived in a house next door to a friend of mine who lives in Maisy. Her other neighbour remembers them personally. The senior officer lived at the Chateau in Gefosse - the one with the bunkers in it ! (but you knew about them already I am sure).

I cant quite understand the implication that the sites are not linked. As someone who has visited the site with me - John perhaps you can tell him then it dosent come from me. Other than that the aerial photographs are crystal clear.... ?! I think that answered it - wont answer it again its just plain silly !

Did I miss where you told me what the big building thats still buried is ? On your next email that says the site is a) well know to bunker experts and b) not important - then you will be able to tell me what the building is and who has written ANYTHING about it previously - you can do that as your first answer please. It is the biggest building on the site - bigger than the 502 so what is it ?

When you tell me what the building is I will accept that you can say in your own mind its not important - untill you tell me what the building is and what it was for then your argument is a little shallow. How can you say the site is not important when you dont know what the buildings on the site were used for ?

Interesting argument about the AA guns but guesswork unfortunately. I can physically see them on the aerial photographs. John perhaps you would like to agree or not ? as you have seen the photographs first hand.

The existance of the static AA guns is also confirmed by the farmers living and owning the land at the time - whom I know personally. And as I said before Jean Marrion noted it in correspondence to London.

Also to the person who disputes their existance - how do you dispute the existance of Flak Regiment No 1 - its well documented as being at Maisy on 6th June. Not just from veterans etc. I have a Flak Regt. No 1 marked helmet from Maisy. They had a substantial amount of guns in the unit. What were they doing defending Maisy if it was of no importance ? I dont recall them being sent to Point du Hoc.

Think about it....Were all the gun batteries on D-day defended by a Flak Regiment ?

Did you know about the regional payroll of French money stored at Maisy and captured by the Rangers ?

Did they store 4.2 million dollars worth of French Francs in each battery along the coast - PdH perhaps, Merville etc.? (thats well documented in a number of books and by all veterans so dont dispute that as well).

I have lots of evidence which points to Maisy being more than just a simple gun battery as you put it... but if you havent been to the site then how can you have an argument about something which you are just reading about.

As for "prove it ? I dont relly have to prove it to you - you live in Holland you are probably an expert on lots of things you have never seen.

Meantime its great to see Maisy being written about on websites. 2 years ago I found it mentioned on 16 sites worldwide. Now its about 166,000 so if that hasnt added to all our interest in the Atlantic Wall I dont know what else will.

I have evidence to back up everything I have said and if i dont know I will say so. I will welcome a good discussion of ideas with anyone but not from people who read about it in a book.

I did make a mistake early on saying the other howitzer was British but I have been told it was Russian. Cest la Vie !

Finally and this is one for the ordnance experts. I have been told that the German army often gave simpler labelling to shell and gun sizes.... now its not me saying this but I am told that often they would label a 105mm as a 100 on paperwork (I dont know why but thats what I am told) and also the 155 as a 150 to round down.

If this can be proved to have taken place this might explain why I have found German fuses and 105mm German steel shell cases at the site.

The 100mm is normally Czech and a 105mm is German. If they were 105mm German howitzers then they could easily reach Omaha Beach I am told --- just a thought and I welcome some imput from someone who can varify that one.

Gary

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bunker14
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Post by bunker14 » 10 Feb 2007 22:14

hi

flak was put here to protect grandcamp harbour and area but not the tow maisy batteries...!!!
in maisy area it's Schwere Flak-Abteilung 32

you can see 88mm on aerial photographs !!!! :? can you show us the part with 88 mm on aerial photographs? (with copirigt on picture)
""not to confuse with false batteries put in north near wn86""""

after war (1945) the battery was a ammunition dump for French enginer you can find every sort of munition
my great father has work for 3 months as deminor in the setor (3em regiment du genie)
can be the shell was from a battery of II abteilung 1352 AR

the other otwizer wasen't russian but a 76,5 FK 17 (t)(tchéque) Maisy wasn't a simple battery.. but two simple battery.....
Last edited by bunker14 on 11 Feb 2007 13:51, edited 1 time in total.

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