Batterie de Maisy Normandie

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
picobello
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Post by picobello » 10 Feb 2007 22:32

Tip to the hat for Gary,... Just as you say,.. you have to visit the site to give an opinion. I'm very anxious to visit the site when it opens it's gate. Whatever the history and how it was written at this place, it is woth saving for future generation to witness what a foreign enemy force was capable of,... In time I'm certain that everything will fall into place once the site is open to the public. I myself had some 'comments' on my work,... but in a lot of cases there was no evidence from the 'complainers', because they had never visit the places and reverd to hearsay from misinformed sources.
I'm particular intrigued by the fact that a lot of discussion is wasted on the importance of the site. In my humble opinion, every batterysite was a threat to the D-day landings, large, small, or not even finished,... the Allies had to silence them, and had to waste precious lives from young men to bring freedom and light to the dark ages of '39/'45.
So Gary, keep up the good work for the sake of preserving the history. I hope that your project will bring new insights on this place of destruction it once was.
It wil be a dificult task to pull in the common tourist who is by then already overwhelmed by al the complexes it already visited. So,... I do not envy this project because it can be a struggle to bring in the money to keep the place profitable. I did come across a lot of great sites that are free to the public, but forgotten and therefor much more interesting for the 'bunker-nut'. But the future will tell us,... and I hope that it will be a near one?

Pieter

http://www.strijdbewijs.nl

Clayroger
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Post by Clayroger » 11 Feb 2007 19:00

Hi Garry.

First, I want to thank you for the real efforts you apply to the resurection of this site, which difinitely is worth your work.

I would also like that, although this debate may be hot, you do not take all this too personnaly.
I think that we all are on he ground of histoy, and we all try to make it clearer.


If I remember correctly Maisy was target number 4 on the allied target list for D-day - get the targetting information and you can see that for yourself. So someone thought it worth attacking.
Two batteries of the 1716. AR were a threat so close to the shore. Not the biggest menace, but n°4 seems quite correct if you look at a map. Anyway, it did not have the value of Longues or Pointe du Hoc of course.

I cant quite understand the implication that the sites are not linked. As someone who has visited the site with me - John perhaps you can tell him then it dosent come from me. Other than that the aerial photographs are crystal clear.... ?! I think that answered it - wont answer it again its just plain silly !
I do not personnaly see the problem with linking the two sites.
After all, they were two batteries of the same Artillery Regiment and even the same Abteilung.
Why would they be isolated ?
What is the consequence for you ?
I do not see any.
Did I miss where you told me what the big building thats still buried is ? On your next email that says the site is a) well know to bunker experts and b) not important - then you will be able to tell me what the building is and who has written ANYTHING about it previously - you can do that as your first answer please. It is the biggest building on the site - bigger than the 502 so what is it ?
I do not see your point here either.
If you want to demonstrate that the site has not been studied up now, you may be correct.
Does this change anything about the value of these two Arty Batteries ?
Not for me.
When you tell me what the building is I will accept that you can say in your own mind its not important - untill you tell me what the building is and what it was for then your argument is a little shallow. How can you say the site is not important when you dont know what the buildings on the site were used for ?
The importance is based on the armament analysis, based on archives listings. Not on buildings.
As far as we know, these two german positions had very obsolete Artillerie, plus a classic garrison for 4 guns batteries.
Why would the german archives be wrong ?
Also to the person who disputes their existance - how do you dispute the existance of Flak Regiment No 1 - its well documented as being at Maisy on 6th June. Not just from veterans etc. I have a Flak Regt. No 1 marked helmet from Maisy. They had a substantial amount of guns in the unit. What were they doing defending Maisy if it was of no importance ? I dont recall them being sent to Point du Hoc.
I persist in saying that there were not twelve 88 at Maisy as a permanent installation.
Nobody dispute the presence of 1. Flak Reg as far I know, in that sector on DDay.
It is known to have been there, I mean the Aure Valley, for decades.
Anyway, the new information would be the high concentration of the heavy batteries near Grancamp. This disposition may be logical anyway as they would cover both Pointe du Hoc and Maisy/Grandcamp batteries from aerial attacks. No real surprise here.
Think about it....Were all the gun batteries on D-day defended by a Flak Regiment ?
The full flak Rgt definitely wasn't at Maisy. That is a fact. Such a heavy concentration on a single spot would have been very dangerous for the Germans.
I have lots of evidence which points to Maisy being more than just a simple gun battery as you put it... but if you havent been to the site then how can you have an argument about something which you are just reading about.
Actually two batteries....
Anyway, what is your theory ?
Never read about it ?
Finally and this is one for the ordnance experts. I have been told that the German army often gave simpler labelling to shell and gun sizes.... now its not me saying this but I am told that often they would label a 105mm as a 100 on paperwork (I dont know why but thats what I am told) and also the 155 as a 150 to round down.
Gary, be wise. Do not go for such arguments.
In 30 years of archives research, I've never run into a single error of that kind.
Like anyone, you are aware of the german sriousness in administrative business.
You can be sure that this info is absolutely correct:

Maisy WN83 Bttr 9/1716
1 off, 10 unt-offz, 41 man
4x15,5 cm s.FH414 (f)

Maisy WN84 Btrr 8/1716
1 off, 10 unt-offz, 36 man
4 x 10 cm le.F14/19 (t)
If this can be proved to have taken place this might explain why I have found German fuses and 105mm German steel shell cases at the site.
The 100mm is normally Czech and a 105mm is German. If they were 105mm German howitzers then they could easily reach Omaha Beach I am told --- just a thought and I welcome some imput from someone who can varify that one.

The presence of different kind of ammo on the site has been explained previously.
So please, stay on the german armament listed in the official archives. That's what they were.

Best regards

Clay

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David W
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Post by David W » 11 Feb 2007 21:35

Clay.

100mm for 105 is not uncommon. But I have never come across 150mm for 155.

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moonraker
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Post by moonraker » 12 Feb 2007 00:49

dear gary,
why advance of you it history, has what that service.a nothing since it is on that gives you twists?
nobody to question here your great work for this battery.
it would be necessary to be reasonable, of the words hurdy-gurdy of 60 years, are A proscribe,because or boils of some year the people deforms that it one considering and heard.tunnel bèton, becomes underground A of plusior km between the batteries,tranch glaze becomes tunnel,ext......there is practice has this.

we have in our Possession much document German, your 88 A maisy, never considering and heard by German.(in the battery)

here it true situation of the battery of the 1352 in May 44, 26 05 44 to be right position a two KM in the Est isigny.
tl/1352
4/1352
5/1325
6/1352
position three KM back the pointe du hoc.
10/1352
12/1352
13/1352

veiled for sector, and nothing other, into 88.
a just too 3 x 20mn flack in the WN 96 for info and the many MG flack in the all WN sector KVU vire and KVU percèe.
I hold has to announce you that I never give information without proof and thus a small part of chart will show to you that evidence one has some.
I have much of another chart which I keep, with the case ou!il not to be useful has nothing to enlarge the history.
to look like German one write maisy compared to the point of the hoc.
STP points hoc and for maisy WN.
to finish. it is necessary to acknowledge that for a battery of divisional artillery, is one of only which is standard shelters has proximity.
the others in there not except, is branville la Hague.
which gives a richness to the site for you!!!!!
and an interesting position.
but not a battery larger than long and hoc!
etienne.
Last edited by moonraker on 12 Feb 2007 11:25, edited 1 time in total.

Clayroger
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Post by Clayroger » 12 Feb 2007 11:19

David W wrote:Clay.

100mm for 105 is not uncommon. But I have never come across 150mm for 155.
Nerver seen that in my life on german official archives regarding artillerie.

Sorry.

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David W
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Post by David W » 12 Feb 2007 20:41

10 Cm K17
10 Cm K18

both 105mm.

Best... Dave.

Clayroger
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Post by Clayroger » 12 Feb 2007 20:57

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info.
It's a new stuff for me, never heard of that.

Anyway I'm 99% sure that 10 cm le.F14/19 (t) were actually 100mm czech arty.

Regards
Clay

dando
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Post by dando » 23 Feb 2007 01:28

Hi Mats
The address is just Grandcamp-Maisy - just follow the signs which will be put up in the next couple of weeks and you will get there. The website which has some information is http://www.armourer.co.uk/maisybattery.htm (and for all the times I am quoted from that website - for the record I DIDNT write the article myself a journalist did so stop quoting me please)
The person who says that Merville is bigger needs to get a new pair of glasses.
To Ben: come and see me and I will show you the photographs. I will not post them here if thats what you want. I will also show you other evidence to end the linked or not discussion and I will show you things never listed on the forums.
As to the line of statements which say that I dont accept other peoples information - thats simply not true.
The problem is that as we have seen on this forum and on many others everyone has a different view on what is there or what should be there. I have collected many versions of what papers are held in Germany and indeed I have paid researchers to go through German archives for me. The paperwork changes each time it is given to me.
Take for example the picture displayed on this forum stating that it is the RANGERS at Maisy - just nonesense but if I hadnt come on and said so then everyone would be using it in books in a years time.
Just like the photograph which is often shown as being Maisy with the old man stood on the pit. It is not Maisy and I can easily prove it but people still believe it because it appeared in a book. (just for those who want to argue the point Maisy dosent have a pit EXACTLY like that one.) You have to study the photograph on the site and you will see what I mean. I have buildings around each pit and only one pit COULD be the photograph and when you study it it is obvious that it is not the same. However, people believe it to be Maisy and print the picture anyway.
The problem is that then people come on forums believing what their particular piece of paper says and that I dont belive them.
I have more information than most about Maisy because thats my field of interest. I have collected information on this place for many years and I am well aware of what was known about and what was not. I am sure of one thing... for somewhere that was previous mostly buried it is certainly causing a lot of interest in people who all say they have known about it for years but seem to have dismissed it. When I found buildings completely buried and not on maps they cannot have been seen before lets be honest.
The shell calibres issue is quite common I have been told by a shell collector. For whatever reason the 100mm was listed and often was actually a 105mm - ask an expert or get an expert to write about it here - anyone out there know for sure? Maisy had 105mm guns not 100mm ones - I keep finding the cases 105mm wide !
The Rangers I know personally also say the guns were 105mm German.
To the documents which keep being quoted from somewhere about troops stationed at Maisy... The Rangers shot 8 German officers in combat at Maisy - and not the 3 officers I know the names of - which makes 11 officers at least !... thats not listed on your personnel lists which come from Germany? Another discrepancy.?
Your paperwork is interesting but dosent always represent what is on the ground or in evidence from the time - that is why I do not always belive it sometimes.
I can see the 88's on photographs. I have witnesses who saw them and I have farmers who have ploughed up the pits where they were. Thats quite simply a set of facts which I am sticking too - meet me and I will prove it.
To the submission that the whole Flak regiment was not at Maisy - that is true. The Flak Regiment No 1 commanded by Werner von Kistowski had 2,500 men. They consisted of HQ company, 88mm, 37mm and 20mm AA guns plus defensive infantry. In his own words which I have from his statements he says that the HQ element and the 88's stayed at La Cambe. The rest of his men with the 37mm and 20mm guns went to Maisy on the 5th of June. I have a great description of exactly what planes they shot down and when and I also have a list of the paratroopers being found and reported to him by telephone and at what time he received the calls as they caught more. By the time he got to Maisy which took him a long time during the bombardment they had 21 paratroopers taken prisoner. The Rangers found another 8 to 10 dead in the trees on the 9th.
That makes approximately 30 paratroopers. Thats 2 sticks I guess from somewhere - I dont believe that the 101st researchers cannot find them and identify who they were - its not my field of knowledge but someone must be able to help with this !
All Rangers report the dead paratroopers and I have many pieces of parachute I have found and one large piece given to me by a veteran from the battle at Maisy. Also, a local farmers wife used one to make a wedding dress from a chute that she found at Maisy - she told me that last week.
Another pointe - I have also not seen anyone discuss the money in the 502 building and more interestingly the landing craft and the American officers who were found dead at Gefosse on D-day. I have an account which says the (conscripted Russians) Germans when challenged about these bodies which were on a cart (by a French official) said "we are taking them to the HQ at Maisy to be examined" - the finding of the bodies is well documented in US archives but not the subsequent removal to the "HQ" Maisy.
I have lots and lots more information relating to things that happened at Maisy so it might be interesting if people gave it a personal look rather than just quoting paperwork from Germany.
Finally, one question. To the person who keeps saying that there were 3 artillery batteries around Gefosse and behind Maisy.... EXACTLY where were they. I have all the aerial photographs from 22 and 23 May and 5 and 6th of June 44 and I CANNOT see them. ..... EXACTLY where were they because I think this is incorrect information. I can see only one set in Gefosse surrounded by wire the others are where ?

Gary

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S_haule
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Post by S_haule » 23 Feb 2007 12:24

Dear Friends,

Some weblinks about Maisy :
http://www.dday-overlord.com/photos_batterie_maisy.htm
http://www.dday-overlord.com/affaire_maisy.htm : it is a webpage about the historical debate about Maisy battery, in French.

Regards,

Sébastien Haule

Mats
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Post by Mats » 23 Feb 2007 12:49

Gary, thanks for the info. I'm looking forward to my visit before summer!

Sebastien, thanks for the links. I hope that they will be translated to english within soon!

Regards / Mats

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S_haule
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Post by S_haule » 23 Feb 2007 13:51

Dear Friends,

Just an information from French Navy Records, post war survey of German coastal fortifications (1946-1947):
- Maisy La Martinière : battery armed with 105 mm gun ;
- Maisy La Perruque : battery armed with 155 mm French gun, numerous 155 mm munitions found on the site.

The fact to find 105 mm munition today, after the cleaning of the bunker, is possible : on the post war years, when munitions are found, the French "Service du déminage" use to put munition in "collecting point" with the view to destroy these munitions. In many case, former German bunker were use as "collecting point" and "destroying point" too. It's could explain the fact to find 105 mm munitons remains in Maisy La Perruque.

Sébastien Haule,
University of Le Havre,
Department of History and Geography

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S_haule
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Post by S_haule » 23 Feb 2007 14:05

A link with a digital copy of the survey made by French navy in 1946-47 :

http://www4.culture.fr/patrimoines/patr ... LUSTRA4805

Regards,

Sébastien Haule,
University of Le Havre,
Department of History and Geography

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bunker14
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Post by bunker14 » 23 Feb 2007 16:07

S_haule wrote:A link with a digital copy of the survey made by French navy in 1946-47 :

http://www4.culture.fr/patrimoines/patr ... LUSTRA4805

Regards,

Sébastien Haule,
University of Le Havre,
Department of History and Geography
thank's Sebastien
we can see the tow battery on this draying
i have SHM document xho talking about 100 and 90 mm shell found at Maisy battery


Ben
ben

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bunker14
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Post by bunker14 » 23 Feb 2007 16:55

Hi

Merville is the same batterie as Maisy I
and ouistreham (chateau d'eau) is same as Maisy II in the face and armament (but ouistreham had more bunker 669.607.610...) .... I think that you must visit them ..
there are two considering differente.. your and that of the others and i don't bieleve in your ( 12x 88 mm flak.. the most biger battery......) so!!!!

The photograph which is often shown as being Maisy with the old man stood on the pit was taken at Maisy with the 155 SFH 414 (f).. so can you tel me were if you don't think it's Maisy?... no!!!!

the pit was the same ..( like you said ""bought a new pair of glasses"")

wy you don't wan to believe German document wo talking about 100 Le FH14/19 (t)????
i have visited the two battery befor works (i m not alone) and there is just
a small destroyed shelter new for me (in south along the way ) and the four pit we can see beter ( but!!!we could see their position on site in the field befor)
moreover it's possible to see the position of some bunker on IGN 1/25000 chart


you have just witnesses for the 88 ?? for me it is not enouth...you need more than proof to affirm some thing.
they'r can be false gun for misled the plane..?. imposible to said on photograph
but it is the case


you said""The rest of his men with the 37mm and 20mm guns went to Maisy on the 5th of June."" but Maisy battery or Maisy city area...????


there was well 3 artillery battery from II./352 artillery regiment around Gefosse with 105 mm guns i have german maps with location about
4,5and 6 AR352.



Ben

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moonraker
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Post by moonraker » 23 Feb 2007 22:13

hi,
nothing is used for to answer, because that advances no! if you have German documents then to see you only that you known as until A 6 juin.afther the 6 jun is false is another thing and that does not impassion us.(history with the US army) for us????????...............and is for this which one does not advance anything. :roll:
etienne

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