9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

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Clive Mortimore
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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#61

Post by Clive Mortimore » 29 Oct 2010, 00:56

Looking at Dr. Leo Niehorster's website http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain ... _arty.html there appear to be only two batteries which were not motorised. These could well be armed with static 3.7 inch guns, they are

2nd Anti Aircraft Brigade,
4 Battery, 2nd Heavy Anti Aircraft Regiment RA

3rd Anti Aircraft Brigade
248 Battery, 79 (Herts Yeo) Heavy AA Regiment RA

All the batteries of 8th (Belfast) Heavy AA Regiment RA seem to be motorised.
Clive

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Manuferey
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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#62

Post by Manuferey » 29 Oct 2010, 01:32

Thank you Clive.

It seems to me that the Germans used more 9.4 cm static guns than the 8 ones from the 2 batteries of the BEF (assuming 4 guns per battery).

Pictures show indeed static 9.4 cm guns at Le Havre (x 4), Boulogne (x4) and Molenbatterie in Cherbourg (x4) = 12 static guns

Many German batteries would have used the mobile version. I think we can recognize it by the 2 “horns” in front. See for instance the picture here from Jos of a 9.4 cm gun at MKB Malo Terminus near Dunkirk: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=125783

Jos' pictures of March 8 (in a bunker) and October 27 also seem to show the mobile version.

It could be interesting to compare the German mountings of the static and mobile versions. :idea:

Emmanuel


Emmanuel


Clive Mortimore
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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#63

Post by Clive Mortimore » 29 Oct 2010, 08:44

Manuferey wrote:Thank you Clive.

It seems to me that the Germans used more 9.4 cm static guns than the 8 ones from the 2 batteries of the BEF (assuming 4 guns per battery).

Pictures show indeed static 9.4 cm guns at Le Havre (x 4), Boulogne (x4) and Molenbatterie in Cherbourg (x4) = 12 static guns

Many German batteries would have used the mobile version. I think we can recognize it by the 2 “horns” in front. See for instance the picture here from Jos of a 9.4 cm gun at MKB Malo Terminus near Dunkirk: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=125783

Jos' pictures of March 8 (in a bunker) and October 27 also seem to show the mobile version.

It could be interesting to compare the German mountings of the static and mobile versions. :idea:

Emmanuel


Emmanuel
Hi Emmanuel

The French and Belgian armies had 3.7 inch static guns as well, France 20 and Belgium 12. In 1940 a British battery had 8 guns which means the Germans could have captured up to 48 guns.

In Dr. Leo Niehorster's OoB he indicates which batteries where not motorised, it does not mean that those which were supposed to be mobile had MkI mountings they could well have been equiped with static MkII guns and be immobile.
Clive

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Manuferey
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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#64

Post by Manuferey » 29 Oct 2010, 14:37

Clive,

I dug into Niehortser's orbat again. I counted 3 batteries with static versions (4., 246. & 248.) with 8 guns each indeed (2 troops of 4 - :oops: ). So the BEF would have had 24 static guns in May 40.

And thanks for the info on the French (20) and Belgian (12) guns as being static.

Thus a pool of 56 static guns (at least).

Emmanuel

Clive Mortimore
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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#65

Post by Clive Mortimore » 29 Oct 2010, 14:55

Hi Emmanuel

I need new glasses as I missed 246 Battery (1st Watford) :roll:

In Rudi Rolf's "Der Atlantikwall", he states there were 45 9.4cm Vickers(e) used in the "wall". Unfortunately his table does not seem to be dated. Perhaps Jos with his many documents could give us some idea of how many were emplaced at what dates.

Clive
Clive

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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#66

Post by jopaerya » 29 Oct 2010, 17:09

Hello

I will try to make a list from what I know maybe other menbers could added or correct it

M.K.B. Vardö 3 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Grötsund 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Harstad-Nord 3 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)


M.K.B. Zuidzand 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Rockanje 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Westerschouwen 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Oostkappelle 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Westkappele 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Cadzand 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)


M.K.B. Heist 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) most likely from M.K.B. Cadzand


M.K.B. Malo Terminus 3 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. La Creche I 3 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Flugplatz 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Nordmole 2 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) from 01-03-1944
M.K.B. Südmole 2 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Blankenese 3 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Molenbatterie 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)

My total is 55 guns later on I try to seperate the mobile and the static versions

Regards Jos

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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#67

Post by guz84 » 29 Oct 2010, 17:32

jopaerya wrote:Hello

I will try to make a list from what I know maybe other menbers could added or correct it

M.K.B. Vardö 3 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Grötsund 4 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)
M.K.B. Harstad-Nord 3 x 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e)

Regards Jos
Regarding the "norwegian" guns these came from the equipment left behind by the british Expeditionary Force to Northern Norway in the spring/summer of 1940. Two batteries were handed over to norwegian authorities and one was made "inoperational" just as the last part of the force evacuated
From these guns the Germans managed to have in total 11 guns in working order
From the batteries handed over to the norwegian authorities a three-gun battery at Grötsund/Tromsoe and a three-gun battery at Trondenes (Harstad-Nord) were operational in 1940. Later a three gun battery was sent to Vardö in the spring 1941. The last two guns went to a gun post at Forra near Bogen (German naval base / MAUREB) in august/september 1941.
The latter came to Svolvaer at the end of the war after having been temporarily at Flatset.
The guns from Vardö came to Jarfjord in 1943.
The guns at Harstad was substituted with 17 cm guns i 1943, and the guns at Grötsumd were substituted with four fresh from production line 10,5 cm SKC/32U in 10,5 cm Ubts L.C/36 in february 1945.

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Manuferey
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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#68

Post by Manuferey » 30 Oct 2010, 03:02

T. Gander and P. Chamberlain show a variation in numbers in German service in 1943 and 1944, with up to 62 in August 1944. See on the table posted by Jos here (2nd post of the thread):
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=113028

The drop of 4 between June and July 1944 would be the 4 guns of MKB Blankenese captured by the Americans near Cherbourg.

Based on Niehortser's orbat, I count 96 mobile guns and 24 static guns (3 batteries of 8) with the BEF in May 1940, thus a total of 120 x 3.7 " AA guns. A few were brought back to England and several were destroyed before falling in German hands.

From actual pictures of the guns, I think that we can deduct the following versions for the batteries in France:

M.K.B. Malo Terminus : mobile version
M.K.B. La Creche I : 3 x static
M.K.B. Flugplatz 4 : 4 x static
M.K.B. Nordmole : 2 x static (transferred from Cap de la Hève)
M.K.B. Südmole : 2 x static (transferred from Cap de la Hève)
M.K.B. Molenbatterie : 4 x static
(Total static guns: 15)

MKB Blankenese seems also to have been armed with static guns. So it would bring the total of static guns in France to 18.

Emmanuel

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Archie
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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#69

Post by Archie » 30 Oct 2010, 12:08

Jos and others,
As I remember there was in a 671Sk.on the Fort Island IJmuiden, Holland, a Vickers 9,4 cm.
gr.Archie

Clive Mortimore
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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#70

Post by Clive Mortimore » 30 Oct 2010, 12:18

The 3.7 inch gun was used by German navy as a dual coast and AA gun, would these have been counted in the available figures of Flak guns as per the Gander and Chamberlain table? Did the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine summit joint returns of available weapons or separate list?

Another thought if they are counted on the same list, were the additional guns on the Gander and Chamberlain table with units not at the Atlantic wall but inland being used solely as Flak?

It seems that the MkI mobile mount was a more common weapon on the 10th May 1940, by the end of the campaign many seem to have been rendered useless by the greater use of the MkII static mount by the Germans.

I do not expect answers to the above questions as they are only trains of thought as to why the sums do not add up. The information that has been found out already is fantastic.
Clive

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Manuferey
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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#71

Post by Manuferey » 31 Oct 2010, 15:36

In a Bauprogramme of June 1st, 1944 the guns of MKB Blankenese are listed as:
9,4 cm Flak Vick.-A (e)

The "-A" is interesting. Would that be a way for the Germans to distinguish between the static version ("A) and the mobile version (which could be "B")? Does these letters appear in any other Bauprogramme?

Emmanuel

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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#72

Post by jopaerya » 31 Oct 2010, 17:57

@ Achie , thank you , yes forgot the one at Kernwerk IJmuiden

@ Emmanuel , I have seen the V.A. text several times , I allways thought it was Vickers Armstrong .

@ Clive , the list in T. Gander and P. Chamberlain shows only in Aug/Sept 1943 62 guns after that
slowly til 50 and nearly all 1944 only 33 guns in service , sounds logic because a lot of 9.4 cm batterie's
were rearmed mostly in 10.5 cm S.K.C/32U in 10.5 cm Ubts L.C/36 .

I have seen seen a document , I can't find it right now , that the reason was not the gun but ammunitionstock
was running low and the rounds could not be made anymore .

Regards Jos

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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#73

Post by Sturm78 » 31 Oct 2010, 21:29

Hi all,

A 94mm Vickers AA gun captured in Dunkirk in 1940:

Image from Ebay
Sturm78
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94mm Vickers AA gun captured in Dunkirk WWII Photo-.JPG
94mm Vickers AA gun captured in Dunkirk WWII Photo-.JPG (54.29 KiB) Viewed 1000 times

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Manuferey
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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#74

Post by Manuferey » 31 Oct 2010, 23:26

[quote="jopaerya
@ Emmanuel , I have seen the V.A. text several times , I allways thought it was Vickers Armstrong .
Regards Jos[/quote]

Thanks Jos. It makes perfect sense. 8-)

Emmanuel

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Re: 9.4 cm Flak M 39 (e) in Holland

#75

Post by Sturm78 » 04 Nov 2010, 20:54

Hi all,

Two small images from Ebay. According to photocation the images were taken in Holland.

Regards Sturm78
Attachments
94mm captured Vickers AA gun in Holland.jpg
94mm captured Vickers AA gun in Holland.jpg (22.82 KiB) Viewed 929 times
94mm captured Vickers AA gun in Holland-.jpg
94mm captured Vickers AA gun in Holland-.jpg (19.91 KiB) Viewed 929 times

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