Vf 4.7cm Pak K 36(t) bunker

[20P7]

Hello guys,

Erik Ettrup is right, we didn't find any Vf SK's for the 4.7 cm PAK (t) in norway with the observation slit next to the 770p4, but we found at HKB Mehamn a Vf SK with an additional observation position on top of the bunker integrated into the roof (have a look at the attachment). Has anybody of you ever noticed this version somewhere else in europe?

Daniel

[Erik E]

Only a wooden cover was put on the open roof on the back in the last couple of years. Presumably it originally had an armoured cover which was removed for scrap metal in the late 1940s,

Just wondering why they would use a armoured cover on the roof like that....
If I might use Norway as an example again, I`ve seen a few 4,7cm bunkers with squared holes in the roof.
So far I haven`t heard any good explanations for this, execpt a note I once read in a original document....
This stated something like "If the 4,7 cm bunker isn`t fitted with ventilation (HES), one must ensure natural ventilation to get rid of toxic fumes inside the bunker".
Thats actually the only logical explanation I`ve heard for both those with holes in the roof, and those with missing backside.
If anyone knows more, feel free to correct my assumptions, but could the holes be for ventialion?

EE

[JTG]

Looking at Trevor's picture of the rear of the Longis bunker, you could be onto something: it does look more like a lip to retain a wooden cover, rather than an armoured plate. I can't make out any fixings in the picture.. Any comments, trevor?

John Germain
Jersey

[20P7]

Well,

there are some Vf structures for 4.7 cm (t) we found on our summer trip 2007 up in the north of norway that fit very much with Erik's theory, like in HKB 5./971 Kistrand, Inf.Stp. Nyby etc.....

As far as I remember we already talked about that theory last year up in the north, didn't we?

Daniel

PS.: I guess you all know Alain Chazettes book "Armements & Ouvrages de forteresse du Mur de L'Atlantique"? On page 17 he placed some drawings of differnet versions of Vf SK f. 4.7 cm Pak bunkers.

[M19 MADMAL]

Hi all,

The Vf at Longis looks the same as the example at Corblet's except the 'added on' bit which looks like a later (wartime) addition as its lines don't match up with the rest of the bunker.

The hole serving as ventilation would make sence as the 4.7's mounted in Type 631& 631b casemates have two large flap valves in the gun room to 'release' the pressure made by the gun firing

The example at Longis looks like it had a 'lid' of some form Prehaps to protect from grenades and the rain

Malcolm

[Trevor Davenport]

Hi Barovic, re. Alderney 4.7cm PakK 36(t) vf bunkers on Alderney

You are correct. The Longis Bay bunker pit is over 3m 'long', the Corblet's pit is 2.5m 'long' while the other four of the more standard type are only 2m 'long' (see attached plan - note no cutting of the corners on three of these). I assume the latter 2m-long pits are deeper (3m)- probably because of ground conditions.It is impossible to tell as five of the pits are full of sand. The Longis Bay pit also looks bigger as the pit walls are thinner - 0.4m.

Thanks for your interest in these rather overlooked bunkers,

Trevor

[Trevor Davenport]

Hi all,

Thank you all for your observations. Eric and John could be well be right - it could certainly have only been a wooden cover to keep out the weather.

One other observation, however:

In the photographs, and on plan of the more standard vf Sk bunker I submitted earlier showing the short length of the pit (2m), it can be plainly seen that the only ventilation would be through the side door. I have attached a photo of the Longis bunker showing a similar, but slightly smaller side door; perhaps this was not sufficient for ventilation. The concrete above the door certainly looks part of the original pouring and not a later addition. The concrete round the door is certianly 'rougher' - it perhaps could have been later. But there is no doubt that the hole in the roof is original. It seems to me to be a very complicated way of ensuring ventilation.

Any thoughts?

Trevor

[jopaerya]

Hi

This French drawing is also for a 4.7 cm PaK K 36 (t) .

Drawing = S.H.M. Vincennes

Regards Jos

[MNO KI]

Hi All
Glad to see you've joined Trevor. Thought all this talk of 4.7's might flush you out into the open. Here's a few pics of the tiny RFO Pak boxes at Wn.Coboufer. They also appear to have a ventilation hatch above the gun position. As you can see from the different stones, the front embrasures were removed and fitted into the fortress standard bunkers alongside, and the holes were then blocked up. There is a similar pair at Wn.Grune Dune, Rocquaine.

[M19 MADMAL]

Hi Paul,

Temporary sites before the fortress bunker was built for 4.7cm Pak's Got nothing like that in Jersey
Guess the Germans thought it better to build the fortress bunker and not wast time here!!!
We have got several early 10.5cm K331(f) emplacements for the gun while the bunker was constructed though

Alderney's 4.7 Vf bunkers seem to be a 'Permanent' defence and not 'stop gaps'.

Next to the 631SK at Wn L'Oeilliere is part of a demolished Vf which could have been a position for a 4.7 which was 'removed' when the fortress bunker was finished and I think there are traces of another next to the 631 at Wn Les Carriere.

Will check it out

Malcolm

[stril]

Hello
Added acouple of photos of two bunkers for 4,7 cm pak.
Both having observation "box" with slits at the backside on the roof. One having one, the other having two.(one closed)
They are one top of the square holes in the roof.
Not sure if its post war. Anyone having info on this ?
regards
stril

[Manuferey]

Quick question of terminology: is the letter "K" the way to differentiate in the German designation between the AT gun on wheels, 4,7 cm Pak 36(t), and the above 4,7 cm FestungsPak ?

Emmanuel

[JTG]

[quote="Manuferey"]Quick question of terminology: is the letter "K" the way to differentiate in the German designation between the AT gun on wheels, 4,7 cm Pak 36(t), and the above 4,7 cm FestungsPak ?

Emmanuel[/quote]

Yes,

K = Kasematte

John

[jopaerya]

Hello

A early 4.7 bunker with nice cammo . From Beeldbankwo2.nl

Regards Jos

[jopaerya]

We had this discussion some years ago that there are places were the V.F. 4.7 cm bunker and the 631/676 were
build along side of each other , here the document with the date 13-04-1942 ( no 631/676 then ) with the order
( Neuer Westwall ) to build the V.F. as soon as possible and in specific the 4.7 cm PaK-K 36 (t) to be replaced
later in St bunkers .

Document = Dirk Peeters

Regards Jos