Scheinwerfer-Abteilung

[pierrot]

Hello everybody,

I am still busy with the analyse of some German documents and this time I need some help about the searchlight units organizations inside the Luftwaffe.
1st question: On the first document I post hereunder, a Gliederung from the Lufwaffe ground units around Ostend (Belgium, KVA3) dated from 1.2.1943, we found a searchlight unit: Abteilung III./4
Should I read this as the 3rd Abteilung of the 4th Regiment (Schwere Flak-Regimenter)?
When I looked on the excellent website over the German Luftwaffe http://www.ww2.dk/, it seems that this regiment has always been stationned around Munich, what is not matching with my unit stationed around Ostend . Has anyone more information about this Abteilung III./4?

2nd question: In the same Flakscheinwerfer unit, 2 sections are dedicated to operate a Malsi-Umwertung. I didn't find any information on the web about this device. Maybe one of you knows more about it?

Thanks for helping.

Pierrot

[jopaerya]

Hello Pierrot

It is Flak-Scheinwerfer-Abteilung 4 and the III means a part of this unit ( Kompagnie ?? )
the H.Q. of this unit was at W.N. Derflinger , http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/abt/sw469.html

The only think that I know and whats come near the Malesi is the Malsi-Gerät .

Regards Jos

P.S. I have edit this post

[RuPo]

Hi Jos,
That also what i thougt ... but 11 Mann by a Malsi-Gerät, i thought it was just a 'gerat' to couple equipment (of course transmit iformation).
g,Ruud

[Simon V.]

Hi Pierrot,

III./4 means III./Flak-Regiment 4. Suppose the first image comes from the Gliederung dated 01.02.1943? Second one with the breakdown of the different Scheinwerfer is unknown to me, maybe I've overlooked it in my own files? Can you tell me where you've found this document. Really interesting this!

Simon

[jopaerya]

Hello All

The Taktische Zeiche in the red circle means a Flak-Scheinwerfer-Abteilung , you can see the Taktische Zeichen from the Flak-Abteilung on the left (l) 993 and on the right the (s) 252 .

The official name of the Malsi-Gerät = "Malsi" Umwertungsgerät , Georg Malsi was the Name, his function was Kommandeur Luftgau-Flak-Artillerie-Schule 1 .

Auf den Flaktürmen sowie in Dreifachbatterien (“Flakfestungen“) kam als Ortungsgerät der “Würzburg Riese“ (FuMG 65) mit einer Reichweite von rund 80km sowie ein optisches Kommandogerät mit 6m Länge und 30km Reichweite zum Einsatz.
Die Einzel- oder Doppelbatterien verwendeten das 4m lange Kommandogerät 40 zum optischen Erfassen oder zum Erfassen mit Radar das FuMG 62 (Funkmessgerät 39 T (D)).
Ein "Malsi" Umwertungsgerät 43 ermöglichte das Umrechnen von Zielwerten von Referenzbatterien. Im Einsatz konnte oft trotz Ausstattung mit Radar nur mit den optischen Geräten gemessen werden, da das Düppeln (Abwerfen von Aluminiumfolien), das breit gefächerte Anfliegen aus verschiedenen Richtungen sowie Berge nicht selten zu einer solchen Häufung von Zacken auf den Röhrengeräten führte, dass eine Auswertung kaum noch zu gewährleisten war. Bei Ausfall von FuMG und Kommandogerät 40 konnte man immerhin die von anderen Flakstellungen ermittelten Werte fernmündlich durchgeben. Hierbei war es mit Hilfe des Malsi-Umwertungsgeräts 43 möglich, deren Einstellungen für die Batterien der eigenen Stellung umzurechnen.

Information http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=606351

Regards Jos

[pierrot]

Thanks Jos and Simon for your explanations.
Now I can clearly see how it was organized.
The III./4 is the 3rd Abteilung of the 4.FlakRegimenter (and not 4. FlakscheinwerferRegimenter, as I first thought !). It came under command of the 16.Flakdivision/129th FlakRegimenter, the same unit that was commanding the other Luftwaffe Flak units inside KVA3 (gem.FlakAbt 252 and le.FlakAbt 993), so it is perfectly matching.
According http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/abt/sw469.html, the III./4 was later changed in Flakscheinwerfer-Abteilung 469 (v) with the 11./4 becoming the 1./Sw.469 and the 12./4 becoming the 2./Sw.469.
I have just found now a document dated 01-12-1943 where this Sw.469 appeared instead of the III./4, what confirms obviously that these unit was renamed.

Thanks again for your help.

Pierrot

[Ebusitanus]

Hello,
Doing a search I found this thread.
My grandfather was part of the 11./ 4th Flak Regiment stationed for most of the war around Oostende.
If you would have info on this unit I would very much like to know about it.

Many thanks

[jopaerya]

Great document Ebusitanus

On this list you can see the 11.III/4 had 12 x 150 cm Scheinwerfer 37 in there unit .

Regards Jos

[myt1prod]

FuFeurer1.jpg

Nice document Jos! Thanks for sharing...
On this document we see that the 5./253 had 4 x 60cm scheinwerfers at De Panne. The only mentioning of such a scheinwerfer line-up I know of is the one marked in yellow on the attached image, laying just behind the Stp Wrangel... I think we can presume this was the location of this Scheinwerfer-unit then? All positions indicated with numbers on this resistance map relate to the Flugplatz Altana at Koksijde (Coxyde, neighboring town of De Panne).

Now of course I wonder about the many other things mentioned on Jos his document which relate to De Panne... what are the I, VIII and IX B.N. and the 1./765 and what is the meaning of the symbols used concerning these units? Very interested to learn more about this

[jopaerya]

@ Ebusitanus - 11./III./4 commandpost Klemenskerke

Schw. 13 Westkerke , Schw. 14 Ettelghem , Schw. 15 Oudenburg , Schw. 16 Nordhoek, Schw. 17 Stalhille, Schw. 18 Bredene,
Schw. 19 Klemenskerke, Schw. 20 Klemenskerke, Schw. 21 Bredene , Schw. 22 Bredene , Schw. 23 Seemansheim Bredene , Schw. 24 Bredene .

@ Jean , it maybe a long shot but maybe we can compare the 60 cm Schienwerfer with the L 411 or other searchlight bunker?

[pierrot]

Hello Ebusitanus,

The 11./III./4 was indeed installed on the East part of Ostend with 12 Zug of each a 150cm Scheinwerfer, numbered from 13 to 24.
The 12./III./4 occupied the West part of Ostend with the same amount of 150 cm Scheinwerfer numbered from 1 to 12.
Heureunder a map with all Scheinwerferstellung positions (reported as WN on the German map) indicated with green circles.

Do you have an idea on which WN or Zug your grandfather was employed within the 11./III./4? Any picture, Feldpostnummer or information he could have written in his letters for example.

Today, you can still find some remains on some of the positions. Some pictures hereunder.

Scheinwerfer - Oostende.jpg

PN 2011-0044.JPG

GE Klemskerke.JPG

PN 2008-0121.JPG

PNO 2012-0520.JPG

Gr

Pierrot

[pierrot]

Jean,

The 5./253 is a light Flak company. This unit is sub-divised in 5 section (Zug) of each 3x 2cm Flak and 1x 60cm Scheinwerfer. Each of these 5 Scheinwerfers was used within one of the Flak sections and were not use all together on the same place.
In La Panne, only 4 sections were deployed at this time. The 5th Zug stayed in the Calais area.

Gr

Pierrot

[myt1prod]

thanks both Jos and Pierrot...
so the scheinwerfers at De Panne where divided under several Strongholds at De Panne. One of these strongholds with 3 x 2cm Flak + 1 x 60cm scheinwerfer was already pinpointed by Pierrot at the Stp. von Rundstedt which was positioned around a R622 and L413 bunker. Also this stronghold had a L402 and L409a to which another scheinwerfer could have been attached As Jos mentions the other scheinwerfers could have been attached to the other strongholds with Luftwaffe-bunkers which have a Flak-emplacement on their roofs like the Stp. Von Schlieffen with it's L410 and the Stp Von Manstein wich had a L411a bunker to house a 60cm scheinwerfer. The fourth scheinwerfer could have been positioned at Stp Wrangel (??).

But that stil leaves the mentioning on the resistance-map i've uploaded unanswered... I have to search for the explanation which goes with the numbers mentioned on this map, but it I recall well (and I think I do) the explanation clearly mentions an array of searchlights standing in the dunes south of St. Wrangel. (also another resistance map mentions the existance of a stronghold here)

[pierrot]

Hello Jean

Don't mix everything!

A Luftwaffe Regelbau doesn't mean that a Luftwaffe unit was using it. Regelbauten from the L400 serie have also been built for the Heer (meanly for the HKB) and even for the Kriegsmarine.
On another hand, Flak guns and Scheinwerfers also exist within Heer and Kriegsmarine units.

The L402, L409A and L411A built in La Panne were making part of the HKB La Panne and were not manned by the Luftwaffe but by the Heer.
The other Luftwaffe Regelbauten built in La Panne, L479, L480, L408, L410 and 2x L413 were manned by Luftwaffe units.

The use of L400 Regelbauten inside HKB is not an exception in La Panne, we find this also in the other HKB's in Belgium:
HKB Zeebrugge = 1x L409A
HKB Middelkerke = 3x L402 + 1x L411
HKB Westende = 2x L402
HKB Groenendijk = 1x L402 + 1x L409A

Also Inside the Kriegsmarine batteries:
MKB Hundius = 2x L409
MKB Ramien = 1x L409A

On Walcheren, despite the presence there of a Marine FestungPionnier unit, they even built a L430A for a MKB.

Also, many different Flak units spent some times in La Panne; some stayed a year or more, some of them only a few months.
The Flak defence situation from 1944 can be then completly different from the one from 1943 or 1942. Sometimes a full company was present for the air defence, and sometimes only a few Alarm Zug.
In the book over the Radarstellung in Belgium, in my map of Stp von Rundstedt, I drew up the situation in September 1944 at the liberation. At this time, only 3 Flak sections have been identified for the protection of the Radar Stellung Pony, 2 within the Stp von Rundstedt and 1 within the Stp Schlieffen (where the Wassermann was located). In addition of this Luftwaffe Flak, the HKB La Panne had also 1x 2cm Flak (L402), 1x 3.7cm Flak (L409A), 1x 60cm Scheinwerfer (L411A in WN von Manstein) and 1x 150cm Scheinwerfer in an open emplacement.

For sure, in 1942 and 1943 there were most probably 4, 5 of 6 light Flak positions around the position but there were probably only light or field constructions and their exact locations in not yet really identified nowadays.

The next Flak units were in positions for sure in La Panne during the war, but at different times, not all together off-course:

3./712 Lei.FlakAbteilung
5./253 Gem.FlakAbteilung
I./1/765 Lei.FlakAbteilung
Alarm Flak Batterie : I./B.N. [later renamed in 141(L)XI], VIII./B.N. [later renamed in 148(L)XI], IX./B.N. [later renamed in 149(L)XI]

I hope I could make it a little bit more clear for you.

Gr.

Pierrot

Hereunder Gliederung from HKB La Panne from 1-12-1943.

Giederung 01-12-1943.jpg

[myt1prod]

Thanks Pierrot for your extensive explanation. As Jos proposed a possible link with the L400-series bunkers in De Panne, I thought it would be that easy; that each of these scheinwerfers could be linked to such a bunker. I still need to find the document which I uploaded earlier, when this document is dated it could help to find out more about the (possible) array of searchlights I was informing about.

The fact that the Germans constantly moved their troops and units during the 4 year occupation, it's quite hard - if not impossible - to have an overall view of how the occupation evolved over these 4 years.