Russian 10"/52 coast gun

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Saska
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Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by Saska » 18 Jan 2009 19:59

Hello together

I am looking for information about the russian 10"/52 coast gun.

Especially the date of design or the pattern are important.

Maybe anyone could help?

All the best

Saska

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Manuferey
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by Manuferey » 19 Jan 2009 00:02

Le site http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_Main.htm mentionne un 10 "/50 et un 12"/52 mais pas de 10"/52. :?

Emmanuel

jopaerya
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by jopaerya » 19 Jan 2009 15:18

Hello All

Two famous Russian 254 mm L/50 was used in the M.K.B. Oldenburg near Calais , they were captured from the Russians in 1915 and used from then on by the Germans first in Borkum and then in the Westwall and at last in the Atlantikwall . This guns was also still in use in W.W. 2 by the Russian coast defence for example in the "Werk Krasnoarmeiski" .

Regards Jos

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Manuferey
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by Manuferey » 20 Jan 2009 00:06

Here are some more information on these Russian guns from:

http://bunkersite.com/panzer/guns/guns-start.html

under "24 cm" then “Russian"

"The Russian battleship "Riruk" [Rurik selon navweaps.com] was stationned at Libau, now Latvia. As the German forces occupied this naval harbor, the ship and her guns were captured. The Russian guns had a caliber of 25.4 cm, but were modified by Krupp to a modern 23.8 cm, in order to use existing German ammunition. After a first assignment on Borkum, the guns were moved to Calais."

Krupp would have had to change the whole tube and only keep the carriage otherwise I do not see how to reduce the diameter from 25.4 cm to 23.8 cm ! :?

Emmanuel

Saska
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by Saska » 20 Jan 2009 12:44

Hello
and thank you all very much for the information so far.

Unfortunatly there is nothing realy fitting in the case of the unknown russian 10"/50 coast gun.
The gun was desgined and delieverd only for coast defence use in twin towers, but it had been never in use at ships.

This is everything I could find out so far.

@Manuferey

The russian cruiser "Rurik" or "Ryurik" had been never captured by German troops. This is quite wrong. The ship got worn out in Russia by 1918 and scraped in 1930.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik_(1906)

Best regards Saska

Borys
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by Borys » 20 Jan 2009 14:00

Manuferey wrote:The Russian guns had a caliber of 25.4 cm, but were modified by Krupp to a modern 23.8 cm, in order to use existing German ammunition. After a first assignment on Borkum, the guns were moved to Calais."

Krupp would have had to change the whole tube and only keep the carriage otherwise I do not see how to reduce the diameter from 25.4 cm to 23.8 cm ! :?

Emmanuel
You re-line the gun.
Example, in similar calibre:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_92-51_mk12.htm

Borys

ROLAND1369
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by ROLAND1369 » 20 Jan 2009 20:09

There would have been relatively little problem in converting the 254/52 to 238 mm by Krupp. Almost all modern naval and coastal guns of the period were built with an outer barrel and a removable inner liner which contained the rifling. This enable their relatively short 250 to 350 average for major caliber weapons to be extended by the expedient of removing the worn out liner and replacing it with a new liner, as long as no major disaster such as an exploding tube or fatigue cracks had developed in the outer tube. Generally it was possible to replace the liner twice. Thus going from 254 mm to 238 mm would have been a simple matter of manufacturing a new liner. Obviously this retubing could only be done at a major arsenal or factory. Simplified it consisted of removing a licking pin and lowering the barrel into a pit where the outer tube was heated by electric heaters to expand it while the inner liner was cooled with cold water to shrink it to a point where it could be removed from the tube. Replacement was similar. I agree that the tubes did not come from the "Rurik" To further simplify the process the Germans lowered the velocity of the piece from 3038 FPS in the Russian version to 2500 FPS in the 238 mm German version thus lessening the stress on the piece. I suspect that the reason for this was not as much to reduce the stress as to increase the barrel life. A similar American piece the 305 mm M1900 was produced with a muzzle velocity of 3000 FPS but was quickly de-rated down to 2560 fps. This was necessitated by the discovery that at the higher velocity the barrel life was only 75 rounds which was less than the amount in the magazines. After the MV reduction the life was 250 rounds. I stress that these were full charge rounds. In conclusion, the result was that the conversion would have been possible using existing equipment and technology at a reasonable cost.

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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by jopaerya » 20 Jan 2009 20:52

Back to the question from Saska , according to the internetsite armchairgeneral.com there were
only 2 batteries with seven guns of 254 mm ( all in the Baltic ) in use by the Russian coast defense ?

Regards Jos

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Manuferey
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by Manuferey » 20 Jan 2009 23:23

Thanks Roland for the explanations on how to re-line a tube with the famous hot/cold "shrink fit" technique.

Emmanuel

Cultus
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by Cultus » 08 Nov 2022 02:12

Read with interest all the posts about the Rurik II’s 254 mm cannon which the Germans managed to acquire and ultimately use at the Oldenburg Batterie at Calais. My uncle was an RCAF bomber pilot who was tasked to attack this heavy gun fortification in May 1944. Everything I have read on the internet says the Rurik II sailed under the Russian flag until May 1921 when her armament was offloaded and she was finally scrapped in 1923 not by the Germans but by the Russians. When the Germans captured the Latvian port of Bilau in 1915 there is no mention in any of the online documents I have seen of the Germans taking the Rurik II.

I’m trying to find out how and when the Germans got the guns. Anyone know?

As an aside the Oldenburg Batterie was also referred to as Le Moulin Rouge. Does anyone know how it came to be so named?

Thanks

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AvB
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by AvB » 08 Nov 2022 08:14

Thanks for the additional information. Whatever the case I’ll remove the information on my website which is clearly not true.

v60pih
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by v60pih » 08 Nov 2022 12:11

Cultus wrote:
08 Nov 2022 02:12
..
As an aside the Oldenburg Batterie was also referred to as Le Moulin Rouge. Does anyone know how it came to be so named?
..
See map below, there was an area called Le Moulin Rouge nearby.
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AvB
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by AvB » 08 Nov 2022 13:59

Probably there was a red mill somewhere. :)

searay
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by searay » 08 Nov 2022 14:56

Here's what A.B. Shirokorad's "Entsiklopediya otechestvennoy artillerii" says about the 10/52 coastal gun:

10/52-inch coastal guns
After the Russo-Japanese war in 1907-1909, a new tandem gun system for coastal defense was designed at the GAU - 10/50-dm and 48-line (122-mm)/50 guns instead of the old tandem 10-dm and 6-dm guns in 45 caliber. The 122-mm gun was too weak, and it was quickly abandoned, but the 10/50-mm guns were worked on for quite a long time. By the way, it was quickly lengthened by 2 calibers and it became known as the 10/52-dm gun. The body of the gun was designed by Lieutenant General Zabudsky. The barrel was fastened in 4 layers, a piston breech, Vickers type, the same as the 10/50-dm naval gun cruiser "Rurik".

Gun ballistic data
Projectile weight, kg: 258
Charge weight, kg: 94
Initial speed, m/s: 868.7
Pressure in the bore, atm: 2850

The military department in 1912 decided to order "in the near future" 65 10/52 coastal guns. In the future, however, it was decided to limit ourselves to 30 guns, of which 2 at the end of 1913, 14 in 1914 and 14 in 1915. Two options for 10/52-inch mounts were considered - an open single-gun and a two-gun turret. As calculations showed, the cost of two open single-gun installations turned out to be 1022 thousand rubles, and one two-gun turret - 1102 thousand rubles, that is, only 8% more expensive. Therefore, ZhAK No. 1279 dated 11/15/1912 was given preference to turret installations.
The rate of fire of the turrets was planned to be 2.4 rounds per minute. VN and GN drives, as well as the supply of ammunition, were produced from an electric motor. Loading angles - from 0 ° to + 15 °. The vertical armor of the turret (all around) should be 305 mm, the roof - 203 mm. The thickness of the cuirass in front is 254 mm, in the back - 127 mm.

ROLAND1369
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Re: Russian 10"/52 coast gun

Post by ROLAND1369 » 08 Nov 2022 18:14

As near I have been able to ascertain the Germans captured six of the se 250 MM m 1892 weapons, all coastal guns, not Naval mounts. Two were captured at Russian Fortress Kovno, being used as long range land artillery inland. Two were captured, again being used as land artillery, at Modlin Poland, and two more were captured at fortress Grodno, all from the Russians in 1915. In addition 4 guns were captured on Moon Island in Latvia during its capture in 1917. I have not seen how many of these were operational. From this assortment 2 in 250 MM caliber were sent to form Battery Oldenburg on the island of Borkum. Due to the limited quanity of Russian 250 MM ammunition available both guns were shipped to the Krupp factory and relined to the standard German 240 MM caliber. This enabled the guns to use existing German ammunition stocks simplifying logistics. At the beginning of WW II, due to the shortage of long range artillery, both guns along with 150, 170, 305 MM and 280 MM coastal mortars, also removed from coastal batteries, were moved to specially built bunkers in the Westwall(Seigfried Line) to be employed as such. After the German victory in 1940 the guns were moved forward to coastal positions on the Atlantic wall my This is my understanding of how these guns ended up at Calais under the same battery name. The majority of this information comes from "DIE MARINEGESSHUTZE DES WESTWALLS AM OBERHEIN" A most excellent history of these little known batteries. I highly recommend it. The only downside is it is in German only.

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