Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Hi Michate & Carl,
Firstly, thanks Michate for those links, I had a good look and I think this just about solves things for me, I know exactly what to look for now, what a great resource!
My main area of interest is in Optical Devices, specifically Bunker / Festung Optics. from the HDv information on the weblinks you have kindly shown me I can now see that it is the "448 Beobachtungs- und Vermessungsgerät" that I need to start concentrating on.
This is a huge leap forward for me, so thank you very much for posting this!
If anyone else has any good sources out there please let me know, I have some info that may help you also, so p.m. me and lets talk!
thanks all
Grappener
Firstly, thanks Michate for those links, I had a good look and I think this just about solves things for me, I know exactly what to look for now, what a great resource!
My main area of interest is in Optical Devices, specifically Bunker / Festung Optics. from the HDv information on the weblinks you have kindly shown me I can now see that it is the "448 Beobachtungs- und Vermessungsgerät" that I need to start concentrating on.
This is a huge leap forward for me, so thank you very much for posting this!
If anyone else has any good sources out there please let me know, I have some info that may help you also, so p.m. me and lets talk!
thanks all
Grappener
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Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Well if your interest extend that far I can dig through my coast artillery book and come up with the like US items for comparison. Let me know.
Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Hi Carl,
Yes indeed, if there is anything on spotting periscopes for azimuth, rangefinding or anything optical related I'd be glad to have a look.
Many thanks
Grappener
Yes indeed, if there is anything on spotting periscopes for azimuth, rangefinding or anything optical related I'd be glad to have a look.
Many thanks
Grappener
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Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Ok I'll dig out the book & schedule a photo copy session.
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Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
On this old discussion there are some examples of sort of fire control eqiupment I am researching.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&start=30
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&start=30
Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
I admire your dedication, though the link shows much dancing in the dark.
Unfortunately, without an artillery background myself, I lack the understanding of the English language artillery terms (still have to struggle sometimes with the German), so I fear I cannot be too helpfule either about many questions.
One question I noticed in the linked thread, was about B.W.E. This stands for "Besondere und Witterungseinflüsse" (= "Special and Weather Influences").
"Sondereinflüsse" or "special influences" are modifications from interior ballistics caused by variations from the norm in propellant charge, temperature, humidity, which cause deviations from standard range and deflection.
The range tables provided corrections for these factors, but how they were included, I do not know.
The special influences do not include the individual influences of the gun (the so called "Grundstufe"), which is measured during gun calibration and corrected directly at the gun. I am not sure, whether Sondereinflüsse covers influences from barrel wear gradually increasing with the number of shots fired. I know there were special V0-Messtrupps, sections for measuring initial projectile velocities directly after leaving the barrel, examining each gun from time to time to correct for these wear influences.
"Witterungseinflüsse" or "weather influences" are modifications from normal range and deflection caused by non standard weather conditions like barometric pressure, air temperature and humidity. There are correction factors as well, and from the examples I have seen they are normally assumed to be linear with the aimed range, i.e. a fixed correction factor for 100 or 1,000 meters is multiplied with the aimed range.
There are also graphical range tables giving e.g. a set of trajectory graphs to take into account e.g. difference in height between gun position and target.
Each battery had a computation section, including, besides people who did the firing chart ("Schießplan", allowing map fire, or "behelfsmäßiger Schießplan", an improvised firing chart allowing only observed fire) work, also some people to calculate the above mentioned factors. Initially they were often positioned at the main observation post next to the battery commander (who was also the premier observer), from 1942 on or so they were in most cases positioned near the battery position, or that was at least recoomended in the manuals.
I have seen mentioned in the gunnery instruction a mentioning of some mechanical computation device to compute these influences, the BWE-Gerät 42, and also a reference to a manual for that device. However I have no idea what kind of device it was and how it worked. I suspect it was a specialisation of the then used standard mechanical computation devices for the mentioned factors.
Unfortunately, without an artillery background myself, I lack the understanding of the English language artillery terms (still have to struggle sometimes with the German), so I fear I cannot be too helpfule either about many questions.
One question I noticed in the linked thread, was about B.W.E. This stands for "Besondere und Witterungseinflüsse" (= "Special and Weather Influences").
"Sondereinflüsse" or "special influences" are modifications from interior ballistics caused by variations from the norm in propellant charge, temperature, humidity, which cause deviations from standard range and deflection.
The range tables provided corrections for these factors, but how they were included, I do not know.
The special influences do not include the individual influences of the gun (the so called "Grundstufe"), which is measured during gun calibration and corrected directly at the gun. I am not sure, whether Sondereinflüsse covers influences from barrel wear gradually increasing with the number of shots fired. I know there were special V0-Messtrupps, sections for measuring initial projectile velocities directly after leaving the barrel, examining each gun from time to time to correct for these wear influences.
"Witterungseinflüsse" or "weather influences" are modifications from normal range and deflection caused by non standard weather conditions like barometric pressure, air temperature and humidity. There are correction factors as well, and from the examples I have seen they are normally assumed to be linear with the aimed range, i.e. a fixed correction factor for 100 or 1,000 meters is multiplied with the aimed range.
There are also graphical range tables giving e.g. a set of trajectory graphs to take into account e.g. difference in height between gun position and target.
Each battery had a computation section, including, besides people who did the firing chart ("Schießplan", allowing map fire, or "behelfsmäßiger Schießplan", an improvised firing chart allowing only observed fire) work, also some people to calculate the above mentioned factors. Initially they were often positioned at the main observation post next to the battery commander (who was also the premier observer), from 1942 on or so they were in most cases positioned near the battery position, or that was at least recoomended in the manuals.
I have seen mentioned in the gunnery instruction a mentioning of some mechanical computation device to compute these influences, the BWE-Gerät 42, and also a reference to a manual for that device. However I have no idea what kind of device it was and how it worked. I suspect it was a specialisation of the then used standard mechanical computation devices for the mentioned factors.
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Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Michate... this single post has been extremely help full. Thanks for the effort. As far as German techniques it covers more information than I've gathered from others in the last five years, or twentyfive for that matter. I will insert a few comments and questions into your text in the hope of extracting the last microgram of information here.
Question: do you have a description of how many men were in the computation section and the specific duties for each?
Thanks again.
Nevermind the techincal language. I have dictionarys and acess to German speakers here. With over five years on this project already I'm not worrrying about a few more sorting out technical terms.Michate wrote:I admire your dedication, though the link shows much dancing in the dark.
Unfortunately, without an artillery background myself, I lack the understanding of the English language artillery terms (still have to struggle sometimes with the German), so I fear I cannot be too helpfule either about many questions.
I'll have to dig through my links. There was a photograph of a possible aid for these weather computations.. Recognizable after some inspection, but nothing like we used for manual computation. For the weather corrections we used a work sheet that produced precise corrections numbers, assuming the input data from the Meterological section was accurate.Michate wrote:One question I noticed in the linked thread, was about B.W.E. This stands for "Besondere und Witterungseinflüsse" (= "Special and Weather Influences").
"Sondereinflüsse" or "special influences" are modifications from interior ballistics caused by variations from the norm in propellant charge, temperature, humidity, which cause deviations from standard range and deflection.
The range tables provided corrections for these factors, but how they were included, I do not know.
The special influences do not include the individual influences of the gun (the so called "Grundstufe"), which is measured during gun calibration and corrected directly at the gun. I am not sure, whether Sondereinflüsse covers influences from barrel wear gradually increasing with the number of shots fired. I know there were special V0-Messtrupps, sections for measuring initial projectile velocities directly after leaving the barrel, examining each gun from time to time to correct for these wear influences.
"Witterungseinflüsse" or "weather influences" are modifications from normal range and deflection caused by non standard weather conditions like barometric pressure, air temperature and humidity. There are correction factors as well, and from the examples I have seen they are normally assumed to be linear with the aimed range, i.e. a fixed correction factor for 100 or 1,000 meters is multiplied with the aimed range.
There are also graphical range tables giving e.g. a set of trajectory graphs to take into account e.g. difference in height between gun position and target.
The US Army kept the computation section with the battery commander or senior officer at the primary Observation Post into the 1930s. The development of the Fire Direction Center and multi battery computational system created a technique that existed paralle to the older method for five or six years. The merging of the two methods seems to have been graduall and accompanied by argument. It is another one of those points where the witnesses and historians contradict each other. It does appear that in Europe from late 1942 the battery commanders OP was discarded and the Forward Observation Post remained. In that case the primary location for the computations was either the battery or the battalion FDC. Depends on which witness you read. The FO teams seems to had still had the training for making the computations at the OP, but I've not found a definative description of them doing so in combat. There are some descriptions from training in 1941 or 1942 where this seems to be the case.Michate wrote: Each battery had a computation section, including, besides people who did the firing chart ("Schießplan", allowing map fire, or "behelfsmäßiger Schießplan", an improvised firing chart allowing only observed fire) work, also some people to calculate the above mentioned factors. Initially they were often positioned at the main observation post next to the battery commander (who was also the premier observer), from 1942 on or so they were in most cases positioned near the battery position, or that was at least recoomended in the manuals.
Question: do you have a description of how many men were in the computation section and the specific duties for each?
From the 1960 swe had electronic computers for the metrological computations, but for manual I never saw anything but the worksheet.Michate wrote: I have seen mentioned in the gunnery instruction a mentioning of some mechanical computation device to compute these influences, the BWE-Gerät 42, and also a reference to a manual for that device. However I have no idea what kind of device it was and how it worked. I suspect it was a specialisation of the then used standard mechanical computation devices for the mentioned factors.
Thanks again.
Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Hello Carl,
thanks for your comments. I might add my comments to your comments myself:
Surely, such work sheets were used by German artillery as well. Once the basic correction factors had been calculated, they were computed for different distances and deflections and these values tabulated for quick reference on a special sheet of paper called "Wetterspinne".
The battalion survey section also doubled as a computation section, which e.g. could track the shooting of one battery, then work out a quick solution and transmit it to the rest of the batteries for battalion fire concentrations, so basically it improvised some sort of fire control center as well.
General Martinek (I think I talked about him in anther thread) during his time as a corps commander (XXXIX Korps at the central Eastern front) in 1943/44 seems to have introduced forward control method generally in his area of responsibility.
thanks for your comments. I might add my comments to your comments myself:
That would be a great common project IMHO, as language difficulties seem to have inhibited any detailed comparisons.Nevermind the techincal language. I have dictionarys and acess to German speakers here. With over five years on this project already I'm not worrrying about a few more sorting out technical terms.
Ah, it would be nice of you could post such a photograph or provide a link to it.I'll have to dig through my links. There was a photograph of a possible aid for these weather computations.. Recognizable after some inspection, but nothing like we used for manual computation. For the weather corrections we used a work sheet that produced precise corrections numbers, assuming the input data from the Meterological section was accurate.
Surely, such work sheets were used by German artillery as well. Once the basic correction factors had been calculated, they were computed for different distances and deflections and these values tabulated for quick reference on a special sheet of paper called "Wetterspinne".
AIUI, the German artillery kept the old battery command system, with battery commanders as main observers and additional forward observers, and battery computation sections, but also did did some moves toward battalion fire control, as battalion commanders were also expected to establish battalion observation posts, from where fire could be directed (normally these were situated close to the main observation post of the central battery of the battalion ("Rufbatterie"), so this so could be used for adjustment on target without straning the communication lines).The US Army kept the computation section with the battery commander or senior officer at the primary Observation Post into the 1930s. The development of the Fire Direction Center and multi battery computational system created a technique that existed paralle to the older method for five or six years. The merging of the two methods seems to have been graduall and accompanied by argument. It is another one of those points where the witnesses and historians contradict each other. It does appear that in Europe from late 1942 the battery commanders OP was discarded and the Forward Observation Post remained. In that case the primary location for the computations was either the battery or the battalion FDC. Depends on which witness you read. The FO teams seems to had still had the training for making the computations at the OP, but I've not found a definative description of them doing so in combat. There are some descriptions from training in 1941 or 1942 where this seems to be the case.
The battalion survey section also doubled as a computation section, which e.g. could track the shooting of one battery, then work out a quick solution and transmit it to the rest of the batteries for battalion fire concentrations, so basically it improvised some sort of fire control center as well.
General Martinek (I think I talked about him in anther thread) during his time as a corps commander (XXXIX Korps at the central Eastern front) in 1943/44 seems to have introduced forward control method generally in his area of responsibility.
Unfortunately not, but maybe a little bit of preliminary information.Question: do you have a description of how many men were in the computation section and the specific duties for each?
It was only vague references, and I was speaking from memory, so please take it with a grain of salt.From the 1960 swe had electronic computers for the metrological computations, but for manual I never saw anything but the worksheet.
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Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
This sounds like a description of the French system I have from circa 1935. The leading or base battery had its OP combined with the Group (battalion) CP/OP. The two other batterys OP were located as auxillarys to the primary.Michate wrote: That would be a great common project IMHO, as language difficulties seem to have inhibited any detailed comparisons.I'm searching for it. Somewhere on one of these discussion boards, if the electrons did not jiggle.
Sent a PM to you on this.
Ah, it would be nice of you could post such a photograph or provide a link to it.I'll have to dig through my links. There was a photograph of a possible aid for these weather computations.. Recognizable after some inspection, but nothing like we used for manual computation. For the weather corrections we used a work sheet that produced precise corrections numbers, assuming the input data from the Meterological section was accurate.
In our late 20th Century manual system the correction was applied directly to the slide rule (GFT) for each propellant charge. A pencil mark provided a new 'correct' line or indice to read the tube elevation, fuze time, & other data. If the book or tabualr firing table was used the weather corrections had to be applied with arithmatic.Michate wrote:Surely, such work sheets were used by German artillery as well. Once the basic correction factors had been calculated, they were computed for different distances and deflections and these values tabulated for quick reference on a special sheet of paper called "Wetterspinne".
Michate wrote:AIUI, the German artillery kept the old battery command system, with battery commanders as main observers and additional forward observers, and battery computation sections, but also did did some moves toward battalion fire control, as battalion commanders were also expected to establish battalion observation posts, from where fire could be directed (normally these were situated close to the main observation post of the central battery of the battalion ("Rufbatterie"), so this so could be used for adjustment on target without straning the communication lines).The US Army kept the computation section with the battery commander or senior officer at the primary Observation Post into the 1930s. The development of the Fire Direction Center and multi battery computational system created a technique that existed paralle to the older method for five or six years. The merging of the two methods seems to have been graduall and accompanied by argument. It is another one of those points where the witnesses and historians contradict each other. It does appear that in Europe from late 1942 the battery commanders OP was discarded and the Forward Observation Post remained. In that case the primary location for the computations was either the battery or the battalion FDC. Depends on which witness you read. The FO teams seems to had still had the training for making the computations at the OP, but I've not found a definative description of them doing so in combat. There are some descriptions from training in 1941 or 1942 where this seems to be the case.
The battalion survey section also doubled as a computation section, which e.g. could track the shooting of one battery, then work out a quick solution and transmit it to the rest of the batteries for battalion fire concentrations, so basically it improvised some sort of fire control center as well.
the system of computation was not described, but it did seem to require the batterys be located relatively close together in distance, and in angle to the target so fires could be massed rapidly. Neither is it described how this related for fire control to the larger "Groupment" of multiple battalions
I suspect the US Army was aware of French methods. What I dont know is if the French method described predates 1935 & if so if it was actually used by the US artillery, or if it inspired the US developments. Since this description appeared in the British Journal of Royal Artillery it may have influenced the Brits to change their methods. The British comment in the JRA was of how fast the French artillery was in massing multiple battery fires on a target. Within the year the Brits were experimenting with schemes for improving their own methods.
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Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Here is link to a eighteen month old discussion that faded out. I ought to make time to combine the posts with this thread.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=130764
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=130764
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Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
grappener... I have the book out. It includes the same material for antiaircraft artillery intermingled with the coastal weapons, so I'll have to pick though to find those of interest for you.
Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Hi Carl,
Many thanks for that, what a great conversation your an Michate are having on this subject...some real quality discussions!
P.M. me if you do manage to get copies of info from you book
many thanks in advance.
grappener
Many thanks for that, what a great conversation your an Michate are having on this subject...some real quality discussions!
P.M. me if you do manage to get copies of info from you book
many thanks in advance.
grappener
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Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
I'll have some scans soon & will contact you then.
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Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Hi Carl,Carl Schwamberger wrote:Anyone have any photographs or illustrations of the equipment and charts the German artillery used to compute the range and direction to target? Thanks
I know Grappener will have seen the book "Mirus" The making of a Battery by Colin Partridge & John Wallbridge (ISBN 0 946 346 04 6) which is a detailed account of the history of KKA Battery Mirus on the Channel Island of Guernsey and included are several photos of the equipment used in the Leitstand which I have posted below.
Hope they are of interest.
Regards,
Malcolm
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- "Another instrument in the Leitstand calculates the readings for determining the corrections to be applied to the firing data which is fed into the Schusswertrechner (Festung Guernsey)"
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"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/
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Re: Artillery Fire Control Equipment
Thanks, I'll add it to the list. Hard to see how the equipment in the photographs is used. It looks comparable in size to the computation equipment used by the antiaircraft artillery. I wonder if there is a museum or other that collects and preserves the old mechanical computers? The people who understood those machines throughly are probablly nearly all dead. Which causes me to wonder if this Herr Hoppe is still around?M19 MADMAL wrote: Hi Carl,
I know Grappener will have seen the book "Mirus" The making of a Battery by Colin Partridge & John Wallbridge (ISBN 0 946 346 04 6) which is a detailed account of the history of KKA Battery Mirus on the Channel Island of Guernsey and included are several photos of the equipment used in the Leitstand which I have posted below.
Hope they are of interest.
Regards,
Malcolm
"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 Commander 1944/45 when he returned in 2006.