Id. naval guns

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
jopaerya
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by jopaerya » 22 Oct 2009 18:05

Thanks Ludvig

I found a other 10.5 cm S.K.C/32 n.s. ???? in 10.5 cm S.K.C/32 g.E.

drawing = Atlantikwall in Zeeland en Walcheren

Regards Jos
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nuyt
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by nuyt » 22 Oct 2009 19:35

Thanks Jos and Ludvig for the lessons!

bechelaren
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by bechelaren » 22 Oct 2009 20:52

The double mounting on the photo sent by jopaerya on 21/10 at 12:11 should be Flak 38
(compare with any good photo of Flakvierling) . The submarine should be an U-Boat Type XXI
It is correct tt 30 mm AA gun was planned for this type of U-boats.
The development started in Zbrojovka (= Ordonance Factrory) Brno in occupied Czechoslovakia under German control
in 1940 and,by the end of the war,the mounting Br 300 for Uboats was designed but never went into production. That is why U-boats Type XXI were provisionally armed with 20 mm Flak 38 twins.
Further development of 30 mm AA gun in post – war Czechoslovakia resulted in double mounting installed on a low-profile armoured light truck . This weapon under designation VZ 53/59 and codename JESTERKA (Lizard) was one of the
few domestic designs adopted by Czechoslovak army ( this time instead of Soviet ZU-23-2 ) and was also exported. It was used in civil war in Jugoslavia

jopaerya
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by jopaerya » 23 Oct 2009 06:26

Hello Bechelaren

Thanks for the extra information on the guns for the U-boot XXI .

Regards Jos

Sturm78
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by Sturm78 » 23 Oct 2009 16:52

Bechelaren, thanks for your aditional information about U-Boot AA turret.

I just have a question: I guess that the development of the U-Boot AA turret was completed successfully. The Jopaerya picture shows that the turrets were mounted on Type XXI submarines (and so was put into production). I guess the development of the 30mm cannon was not finished before the end of the war, no??

Or maybe the turret mounted on submarines was another model, different to that developed by the Czechs?? :?

Regards Sturm78.

jopaerya
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by jopaerya » 24 Oct 2009 08:23

Hello Ludvig

Here a photo of a 10.5 cm C/32 n.S. in a M.F.B. with a Deckenschutzschild
but what this gun had also the n.L. how what it named then ?? photo from Ebay.de

Regards Jos
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ludvig
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by ludvig » 24 Oct 2009 16:28

Hello Jos ,
* thanks for the new photo !
* some comments :
* Jos's law no 1 :
When you see a short 10,5 cm German naval / coastal gun with a
" Spannmutter "+ two humps it is either a :

A ) 10,5 cm S.K. C/32 n s in 10,5 cm M.P.L. C/32 g. E .
- Schützwand ( as in Jos's scan from Sakkers + Houterman
page 122 . correct caption !)
- Schützschild ( forward a good link later )
or
B ) 10,5 cm S.K. C/32 n. L. in
- 8,8 cm M.P.L. C/30 open
- 8,8 cm M.P.L. C/30 D Deckenschütschild = Schildkröten =
toat = turtle = looks as old Volksvagen from 1960's

The two humps are connected to the neuer Rohraufbau system . The gun
barrel is in 3 x parts : the liner in two + one piece mantel . The newer
versions of the 10,5 cm S.K. C/33 twins have also two humps . The purposes
varies with the sources .

So my interpretion / view is that your scan shows :

10,5 cm S.K. C/ 32 n. L. in 8,8 cm M.P.L. C/30 D

Regards
ludvig

ludvig
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by ludvig » 24 Oct 2009 16:53

Hello Jos ,

More :
a) Notice that the hump closed to the muzzle have a small
cut / groove : It have 3 x purposes :
- de - coppering
- fastend the muzzle mirror
- fastend the tompion

b) Mounts ( in short )
- Submarine / uboot - LC / 32 + LC/36 many as CD
- naval MPLC / 32 + 50 elev ( only 5/506 Stördal ??? ) + g. E. + 70 elev
- inside the 8,8 cm M.P. L. C/30 " box " / mount / pivot . Both the
4 x sided land shield ( + Flakschiffe ) + all sorts of Deckenschütshield
are bolted on this 8.8 cm box . So the 8,8 cm M.P.L/ 30 is key to
understand the complex 10,5 cm S.K.C/ 32 system .

C)Jos , J have a liitle problem for you + others
The Germans used 10,5 cm S.K.C/32 in the batteries Eierland , Kaaphoofd ,
Camperduin , Egmond and Westduin , but my sources does not tell anything of
10,5 cm mounts ! Have you any clues ????

Regards
ludvig

bechelaren
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by bechelaren » 24 Oct 2009 18:27

Hi Sturm 78
As to 30 mm gun for Br 300 mounting:
The story of this weapon design is little bit obscured.
Some sources say tt Czech engineers successfully slowed down the development until war ended.
Nevertless, the development of ammunition for this gun was finished durinf the war and it was even put into production in 1944 (112000 pieces are said to be produced). It is a fact that a field dual mounting BR 303
( one-axle mounting , not self-moving) was produced by the end of the war ( ca 130 pieces).
Br 300 for submarines must have been quite complicated as it had to be a quadruple mounting.
So, it has most probably nothing common with 2x20 mm mounting on U-Boat Type XXI.
The origin of 2x20 mm mounting should be by Rheinmetall or Mauser, who both were also entrusted
with development of submarine 30 mm turret.
Apart from turret design problem, ammunition feeding could be the reason of Br 300 delay.
When Zbrojovka Brno offered this gun on field mounting to Czechoslovak army after the war, the gun was feeded
by short belts of 8 shells - quite impracticable for use in relatively small submarine turret.

Sturm78
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by Sturm78 » 25 Oct 2009 08:19

Thank you for your new information, Bechelaren.

Have you any image of 30mm Br303 czech field AA gun?

As for the turret mounted on Type XXI submarines, was definitely of German design. Probably designed for 30mm AA guns, but fitted at the end of a 20mm cannon, not having completed the development of the german 30mm cannon.
Is this correct?

Regards Sturm78

jopaerya
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by jopaerya » 25 Oct 2009 22:29

Hello Ludvig

Again thanks for the extra information on the 10.5 cm S.K.C/32 gun , I have original information on the
M.K.B. Westduin , Egmond and Kaapshoofd , that the Westduin and Kaapshoofd were rearmed with
10.5 cm S.K.C/32u and Egmond was newly placed . I will try to find the documents .
I am not sure about the Eierland and Camperduin .

Regards Jos

ludvig
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by ludvig » 26 Oct 2009 13:31

Hello Jos ,
Thanks for checking up the German 10,5 cm S.K.C/32 batteries in Holland (
or is more correct to say Netherlands ??? ) . Have you seen the drawing of
Batterije Westduin at page 133 in the Dutch book :
Van verdediging naar bescherming , De Atlantik in Den Haag ???
Thanks again for more bricks in the 10,5 cm S.K.C/32 system !
Regards
ludvig

jopaerya
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by jopaerya » 28 Oct 2009 21:36

Hello

Here a photo of the n.s. and n.L. in one 10.5 cm S.K.C/32 gun .

Photo = Ebay.de

Regards Jos
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ludvig
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by ludvig » 29 Oct 2009 06:57

Hello Jos ,
* Thank you very much for new interesting photo !!!
* The photo shows :
10,5 cm S.K.C/32 n. L . in 8,8 cm M.P.L.C/32
Notice :
- two humps
- the Spannmutter
- the loading engine = Motor / Ansetzer . Joe' device over
the gun barrel . Same system as on 10,5 cm Flak + 12,8 cm
Flak . The loading engine drives diabolos / rubber rollers inside
the breech which " eates " the shells for helping shell weight
+ problem with high elevation .
- some parts of the the semi - automatic breech housing left
on the breech end = Ladevvorrictung .
- For Jos + Nuyt : The photo shows the same gun as in Overloon
- Found the Duch postwar designation as Kanon Van 10,5 cm no 5
* For the German merkings looking for :
a ) markings at the back of the breech block
b) markings at the back of breech end itsself
c) top of the E - Scheibe
* inspired by Jos J am starting see the difference of 10,5 cm S.K. C/32 n. L. and
10,5 cm S.K. C/32 n s !
* more later , have do some shopping !!!

Best wishes
ludvig

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Manuferey
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Re: Id. naval guns

Post by Manuferey » 01 Nov 2009 15:12

Here is a picture (ebay.de) of a 10,5 cm SK L/32 in Ijmuiden in 1941with the handwritten note on the back mentioned "n.L." (the loading device is clearly visible):

Image

And for reference,here is the picture (ebay.de) of what I think is a barrel of a 10,5 cm SK C/32 in 8,8 cm MPL C/30 but without the double hump:

Image

Emmanuel

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