88mm
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Redbaron1908
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i think
i think on the book soldat knappe refers using some sort of 88 to fire inderect artillery fire i think an 88 could have been used for inderect artillery fire
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von Wolfsberg
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The german 88 flak was used for indirect/vertical artillery fire!
on the one had, althought designed as AA gun, the 88 was one of the most effective German PAK in WWII.
on the other hand it was also used to support the battle of German ground troops
Greetings
on the one had, althought designed as AA gun, the 88 was one of the most effective German PAK in WWII.
on the other hand it was also used to support the battle of German ground troops
Greetings
- Attachments
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- captured German 88 in Africa. The Afrika Korps used the 88 especially as an PAK
- 881.jpg (79.17 KiB) Viewed 1880 times
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von Wolfsberg
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Interesting info I found on a artillery website.
Both Britain and the US used BL(breech loading, using bags of propellant) for all field artillery larger than 105-mm. In contrast continental European armies tended to use metal cartridge cases (QF mechanisms) for almost all field, for example Germany used cased charges for all field guns and most railway guns and the USSR used cased charges for all their 122-mm and 152-mm.
http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/ammo.htm
Both Britain and the US used BL(breech loading, using bags of propellant) for all field artillery larger than 105-mm. In contrast continental European armies tended to use metal cartridge cases (QF mechanisms) for almost all field, for example Germany used cased charges for all field guns and most railway guns and the USSR used cased charges for all their 122-mm and 152-mm.
http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/ammo.htm
Althoughn your pic describes RAF or US kills I do not see the Panzer motif indicating tank kills. The stirpes were most common for destruction of a/c. i am well aware as I have flak/AT pieces showing the same in Russia indicating Soviet Panzers knocked out but with the white tank painted on the barrel to differinciate the two
E
E
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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Erik E is right about that artillery nearly always uses separate loaded (or semi-fixed - like US 105mm howitzers) - charges. Reasons for this: Firstly, like Erik said, there is need to adjust the trajectory, but as important is the fact that 90% of the time artillery doesn't fire to maximum range. Using max. charge all the time would be just unnecessary straining of gun and waste of expensive propellant. Artillerys aim is to deliver shell accurately to target using always as little propellant charge as possible.
About artillery cartridge cases:
First we must understand that, especially in largest calibres - case doesn't always contain whole powder charge. Cases primary purpose is not carry the propellant, but to seal the breech. It is common practice to use so-called fore-charge (which is bagged) on front of short case, also in guns that need case sealing.
Why some countries used bagged charges, without case and others (especially Germans) cartridge cases, is a result of different traditions and preferences in gunmaking. Krupps sliding-block breech (which Germans used in 99% of their guns, even the largest) needed case for obturation. On the other hand this breech-mechanism is simple and easy to manufacture. French, Brits and US used mostly screw-type breeches on their larger guns, which doesn't need cartridge case for obturation, but are very demanding pieces of precision manufacturing.
Today it is perfectly possible to use bagged charge with sliding-block breech - actually Germans were at closing stages of WW2 perfecting that type of gun, which didn't quite made to field-use, but was closely studied by Allied forces after war.
Regards, Mark V
About artillery cartridge cases:
First we must understand that, especially in largest calibres - case doesn't always contain whole powder charge. Cases primary purpose is not carry the propellant, but to seal the breech. It is common practice to use so-called fore-charge (which is bagged) on front of short case, also in guns that need case sealing.
Why some countries used bagged charges, without case and others (especially Germans) cartridge cases, is a result of different traditions and preferences in gunmaking. Krupps sliding-block breech (which Germans used in 99% of their guns, even the largest) needed case for obturation. On the other hand this breech-mechanism is simple and easy to manufacture. French, Brits and US used mostly screw-type breeches on their larger guns, which doesn't need cartridge case for obturation, but are very demanding pieces of precision manufacturing.
Today it is perfectly possible to use bagged charge with sliding-block breech - actually Germans were at closing stages of WW2 perfecting that type of gun, which didn't quite made to field-use, but was closely studied by Allied forces after war.
Regards, Mark V
Hallo!
I just want to clear up a few things in this interesting discussion
I have never said that the 88 wasn`t used as Pak against tanks. I think that is a fact which everyone on this forum knows!
I am just doubtful about the 88 being used as field artillery (Fireing at targets you can`t see in the sight)
And:
The only problem is to place the bags in high elevations!
Erik
I just want to clear up a few things in this interesting discussion
I have never said that the 88 wasn`t used as Pak against tanks. I think that is a fact which everyone on this forum knows!
I am just doubtful about the 88 being used as field artillery (Fireing at targets you can`t see in the sight)
And:
This is also true, but before the case was placed in the gun, the right amount of "propellant bags" would be added by the guncrew. If you look at performance tables for German field artillery, there are one for each charge, often as many as 8 different for each gun!Germany used cased charges for all field guns and most railway guns
This is the kind the Norwegian army uses in their M109 howitzer!Today it is perfectly possible to use bagged charge with sliding-block breech
The only problem is to place the bags in high elevations!
Erik
I know this drill to my fingertipsOk. Could anyone explain to me the process of how a standard 105mm field artillery piece would be set and sighted and then fired?
But I might get a problem with the technical words in English 
I`ll try an easy version:
This is based on Norwegian artillery drills with American 105mm`s.
The drill is probably different in other countries!
When the artillery is placed in it`s position, their exact positions are found by using optical instuments and triangulate it`s positions from known points in the terrain (like mountain tops, rocks or even buildings)
If the terrain is rough, you have to do this with each cannon becouse of the difference in terrain elevation.
Now each gun has it`s own datas, and the crew at the fire control will calculate elevation and traverse for each gun to several spesific points in the terrain where it is supposed to be needed (Roads, bridges+++)
These datas are recorded as "primary targets" and can be sent to the guns in seconds if anything happens.
If the target selected is not among the primary, a new calculation has to be done.
The gun crew will start to prepare ammo with the right fuzes, charges and grenade type to the various primary targets. There will also be prepared a few full charge HE grenades incase of direct fire is needed.
If the target is not among the primary, new grenades has to be "assembled".
When a target is spotted (like advancing tanks) the fire controlpost will get a message from the artillery observers. The Fire control will immedeately send the right datas to the various cannons. (Elevation, traverse, charge,fuze and shell type)
When a cannon is ready to fire, it will note the Fire control. When all guns are ready, "Fire" is given by an officer and the first gun fires 1 shot. The observers will, if needed, correct the impact, new datas sent to the guns and then each gun fires 6 more grenades. If the target was a primary, 36 grenades will hit the target within minutes!
Todays new artillery called MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System)
are using GPS instead of optics. This makes them able to fire only seconds after stopping. The aiming done by the observers are also much better as they are using laser instead of stereoscopic rangefinders.
Erik
Yep.
For normal artillery purposes case is just an burden. Sometimes necessary, but it is always preferable to dispense it when it is possible.
It just consumes strategic materials - of course - gun using cartridge cases need an additional loading component, which bag-loaded guns could live without. Nowdays in purposes where fixed ammunition is preferable (tank guns) there are guns which use combustible cases, though i think most of them have still conventional metallic case base. And don't forget Chieftain MBTs 120mm gun. It used bagged charge !!, IIRC - breech design was copied from that German gun (15cm sFH 18/43) i mentioned previously.
Regards, Mark V
For normal artillery purposes case is just an burden. Sometimes necessary, but it is always preferable to dispense it when it is possible.
It just consumes strategic materials - of course - gun using cartridge cases need an additional loading component, which bag-loaded guns could live without. Nowdays in purposes where fixed ammunition is preferable (tank guns) there are guns which use combustible cases, though i think most of them have still conventional metallic case base. And don't forget Chieftain MBTs 120mm gun. It used bagged charge !!, IIRC - breech design was copied from that German gun (15cm sFH 18/43) i mentioned previously.
Regards, Mark V
Couldnt help but to add to this topic.
The Germans used cartridge ammuntions for there large guns in WWI as well. Most of the big guns on the HSF ships and Kriegsmarine also used cartridge cases. On most turrets there was a hatch at the bottom of the turret to drop out the empty cases.
As for kill rings I have seen the short 75 with kill rings for tanks and a destroyer!
On 88's they were always issued ap shells after Poland. It was in Poland that 88's were used to fire straight into stronghold gun openings. It was apparantly practised by the crews before they turned west.
The kill rings were used to mark planes, tanks, and what ever else the crew felt they should add to there credit, but this was of coarse in the bounds of the commanders descresion.
admfisher
The Germans used cartridge ammuntions for there large guns in WWI as well. Most of the big guns on the HSF ships and Kriegsmarine also used cartridge cases. On most turrets there was a hatch at the bottom of the turret to drop out the empty cases.
As for kill rings I have seen the short 75 with kill rings for tanks and a destroyer!
On 88's they were always issued ap shells after Poland. It was in Poland that 88's were used to fire straight into stronghold gun openings. It was apparantly practised by the crews before they turned west.
The kill rings were used to mark planes, tanks, and what ever else the crew felt they should add to there credit, but this was of coarse in the bounds of the commanders descresion.
admfisher
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gabriel pagliarani
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"This is the kind the Norwegian army uses in their M109 howitzer!
The only problem is to place the bags in high elevations! " Erik said.
...reply: a simple "tongue alike" blocking spring built in the bottom side of combustion chamber is enough to solve the problem of "sticking up" the bullet then allowing free space for modular launch-charges while high elevation re-charging. All the field guns that I had touched had such mechanism in it. In the Navy only AA guns have a metallic cartridge and only "master-calibers" (up to 250 mm diam.) need 0° elevation while recharging...but in that case the bullet weighs as a small car!
If there was a std. german "kill ring code" to be displaced on long barrels ( so similar to a commercial bar code?) please someone could explain me as it worked? I have understood black ring for tanks, black & white for planes. What for boats? :roll:
The only problem is to place the bags in high elevations! " Erik said.
...reply: a simple "tongue alike" blocking spring built in the bottom side of combustion chamber is enough to solve the problem of "sticking up" the bullet then allowing free space for modular launch-charges while high elevation re-charging. All the field guns that I had touched had such mechanism in it. In the Navy only AA guns have a metallic cartridge and only "master-calibers" (up to 250 mm diam.) need 0° elevation while recharging...but in that case the bullet weighs as a small car!
If there was a std. german "kill ring code" to be displaced on long barrels ( so similar to a commercial bar code?) please someone could explain me as it worked? I have understood black ring for tanks, black & white for planes. What for boats? :roll: