3cm Flak 103/38

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dirk Peeters
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by dirk Peeters » 25 Jan 2014 16:22

Yes its very restorable but the problem is we can t place it in our museum , The belgian army has one , and i don t wanna see it go on sale for some guy who wanna make some money of it
Wish a museum wants it not va collector)
it isn t in danger at all and its pretty dry in there...
but i m afraid it is a bit to far for you ....
Dirk

HerrLyppe
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by HerrLyppe » 29 Jan 2014 02:47

cobrahistorian, thanks for sharing the photos of your restoration. A really rare opportunity to get a good look at a rare weapon.
Below is another photo that has done it's rounds in discussions and probably one of the nicer ones. It appears to be of a display of the new weapon with the 103/38 in the foreground, a Kugelblitz in the background and what appears to be the aircraft version 108 on an improvised testing mount in the centre. Possibly the ground fire version mounted on a stump in front of them.
Although it appears to be an earlier version of the mount that is undergoing restoration, quite a few of the same modifications can be seen on both.

Image

Cobrahistorian
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by Cobrahistorian » 31 Jan 2014 14:18

Fascinating photo! My hunch is this is a prototype or a really early production gun. It still has the Flak 38 sight arm and lacks the add-on muzzle brake. You can see the equilibrator pulley housings in shadow just below the front armor mounts, and the angle iron gun mounts are pretty visible here too.

Now, the ring sight is clearly visible there. My ring sight is present, but the forward ring is gone. Anyone know where I can find another?

Thanks!

Jon

Cobrahistorian
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by Cobrahistorian » 31 Jan 2014 16:42

Once we finish the Jaboschreck, we'll start on these two. Our Department of Logistics is going to do the Flakzwilling 43 for us.
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Cobrahistorian
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by Cobrahistorian » 31 Jan 2014 16:55

I have no idea why my phone insists on posting this image upside down, but I'm done with trying to correct it!

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kstdk
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by kstdk » 31 Jan 2014 17:00

Hello

:)
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HerrLyppe
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by HerrLyppe » 10 Feb 2014 05:26

The sight on the photo that I posted above is a Schwebekreisvisier 38. Common to all 2cm Flak late in the war and shouldn't be too hard to get your hands on.
The supports that they've used on the cradle appear to be heavier than that used on yours although it doesn't appear to have the reinforcements across the base, where the platform on yours appears to have been completely replaced.
Very rare to see an almost complete early pattern Flakvierling and it'll be great to see it get some attention. I'm assuming that this is the one that was previously in Austin, Texas.
How comprehensive is the restoration going to be? Do you have a new sight for it?
Allan

Cobrahistorian
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by Cobrahistorian » 12 Feb 2014 00:27

Allan, we have everything, and the sight mount just came back to us today. Here's the pics!

We reinstalled the sighting mechanism today and mechanically the Jaboschreck is complete and fully functional. Now we need to clean it and repaint it. We've already ordered accurate colors from TM9 and it will be painted exactly as it was at Aberdeen in November 1946. It still wore its original WWII camouflage scheme then and we have the photos to support the paint scheme.

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HerrLyppe
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by HerrLyppe » 13 Feb 2014 00:04

Jon,

Again, thank you for sharing the photos of this mount. It's interesting to see the mods that were made to the lafette in order to accommodate the 3cm cannon. Something new in every photo.
Is the Zielfernrohr marked 2cm or otherwise? A shame that the Schwebekreisvisier isn't complete. Are there plans to find the missing parts?
Do you have any closer photos of the Lafettenkasten on the rear leg. Looks like it's been modified but difficult to tell.
When I asked about the replacement sight, I was referring to the Visierkopf 38/40 on the Flakvierling 38.

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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by Cobrahistorian » 13 Feb 2014 00:34

Allan,

I realized which sight you were talking about right after I posted my last. As for the mods to the mount, one of the really interesting modifications is the strengthening of the rear leg of the base. The small tool compartment was filled with scrap steel and concrete to strengthen it at that point. My hunch is to compensate for the significantly increased recoil from the 3cm gun.

The Zielfernrohr is actually from my Flak 38. I've been contemplating putting the 3,7cm Zielfernrohr that we have on it instead, since the 2cm will go on the Flak 38 once it's done. The ring sights on the Jaboschreck are nearly complete. The adjustment knob is badly bent, so we're trying to straighten it. The only thing we're missing is the front ring for the ring sights.

As far as the Flakvierling goes, yes it is the one that was in Austin. It had been loaned there in 1999 and promptly forgotten by a years-previous ADA Museum administration. It was, however still on my books when I came on board as were four other pieces. We recovered them back in September. We'll be doing the Flakvierling next, and we do need the Vizierkopf 38/40 for it, among other things. They cobbled together a lot of things on this gun that need to be replaced either by originals or reasonable facsimiles.

We'll also be sending the Flakzwilling 43 over to our department of logistics fairly soon for a complete external restoration. We may see about pulling the guns first and seeing what we can do with them....

HerrLyppe
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by HerrLyppe » 13 Feb 2014 05:03

In some of the other photos it looks as though there may be a plate welded where the cover originally was. I actually would've thought that the injection of the extra weight would be to serve as a counter-balance against the additional weight of the 3cm cannon, considering the mount was originally only designed to accommodate the 2cm. This additional weight would also effect the stability of the weapon when mounted on the trailer as well.
It would be interesting to see the underside of the platform to see if they have in fact replaced it, or just modified it. Difficult to tell from the photos whether an early or late pattern mount was used as a foundation.

Is there an original report still available that might list the optics the weapon had? It would be interesting to know whether it just used the 2cm zielfernrohr or something else. On the back side of the main support of the Schwebekreisvisier, is it's designation still visible? ie. Schwebekreisvisier 38.
What is the other sight that you have for the Flak 38? As there's obviously nothing mounted on it in the photo.

Would also be interested in hearing what it is that they have 'cobbled' together on the Flakvierling. I have quite a few photos of this weapon from when it was on display in Austin, and being the only surviving early pattern mount that I'm aware of, discerning early and late pattern features can be difficult.

It's certainly going to be a great collection when accompanied by the 3.7cm Zwilling, as apart from the one at Koblenz, it's a rarity also.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions

Allan

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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by HerrLyppe » 13 Feb 2014 05:36

Do you have any idea of what the purpose of the pulley and handle on the rear left side of the lafette is?
Were the handles that you have mounted on the traverse and elevation mechanisms original or have you replaced them. Although you can't see it very well, but in the original photo that you posted of the weapon taken in '46, the traverse handwheel looks like the earlier type and not the Flak 36 ones that are on there now.

Cobrahistorian
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by Cobrahistorian » 13 Feb 2014 05:59

Sure do. That's the charging handle. There's a t-handle and chain that extends off the back of the gun and fits right into the slot on the pulley.

The T&E handles have been frustrating me quite a bit. I have two photos of this gun in 1946. One looks like it has the spider wheels and one clearly has the stamped Flak 38 wheel. There is some speculation that there may have been two Jaboschrecks brought back to Aberdeen after the war, since the original inventory lists a 3cm AT gun as well. I'm trying to find out more on that right now.

It is amazing the difference in weight between the MK103 and the Flak 38's 20mm. I can lift the 20mm pretty easily by myself. It actually weighs less than a US .50 cal. The Mk103, however is a beast! We needed a forklift to lift it up onto the mount, as it's about 400lbs!

Here's the sight mount for the Jaboschreck. Clear markings and waffenamt.
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The mount on the Flak 38 is something they cobbled together at the museum in Austin and is completely made up.

I was wondering if the Flakzwilling 43 was the only one left. Glad to hear there's another one out there! Ours is in rough shape, but we'll get it looking the part, even if it isn't functional like the other three will be.

Happy to talk about this stuff, and I've learned a heck of a lot here!

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Grzesio
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by Grzesio » 13 Feb 2014 09:45

I can lift the 20mm pretty easily by myself. It actually weighs less than a US .50 cal.
I think the 2 cm Flak 38 weights some 56 kg...?

HerrLyppe
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Re: 3cm Flak 103/38

Post by HerrLyppe » 13 Feb 2014 12:29

Jon,

Thanks for that, another gap filled. Although it seems odd that the shaft doesn't reach all the way through to be supported by the other side of the lafette. Or does this cocking mechanism not require a great deal of tension?
Any idea what the small welded bracket on this left side of the opening which is usually covered by the magazine tray on the 2cm, is for? Doesn't seem to be attached to anything in the '46 photo either.

Is the other photo of the Jaboschrek from a different angle? Does it have the same unique elevation mechanism or is it the later pattern stamped housing like the one in the photo that I posted above? The handwheels on yours look very similar to those on the 37mm Flak 36 which are noticably larger than the same type used on the Flak 30.

By the sounds of it the weight of the 3cm would simple tip the mount over without the counterweights injected into the rear leg. What a fantastic thing to get to play around with.

Seems the optics question is solved as well as this is just the standard late pattern Schwebekreisvisier 38 us on the 2cm.

Are you referring to the optics on the Flakvierling that was cobbled together? If I remember rightly it's little more than a block of wood. The Flakvisier assembly certainly appears to be genuine, although missing details.

Here's the 37mm Flak 43 Zwilling at Koblenz. From what I've seen of yours, the Koblenz one doesn't appear to be as complete.
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Glad you're enjoying it. I'm loving seeing the details on this thing.

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